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Alliance vs. Horde (Legitmate discussion please)
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Post by
Lordplatypus
Who would win, why, what advantages did the losing party have, the aftereffects on azeroth, the two factions and neutral races.
Post by
HiVolt
Can you restate the question with more specific parameters? When you say Alliance, do you mean all the factions who even marginally align themselves with the Alliance or just the playable races? Same for the Horde. What are the main fronts? Whose forces are going where? What types of weaponry are being employed? If the ultimate goal of both factions is total obliteration of the enemy, does either faction seek outside help from either wholly neutral(Earthen Ring/Cenarion Circle/etc.) or evil(Burning Legion/The Scourge/etc.) factions? And perhaps most importantly, who are the supreme commanders?
Without those specifics, you can run through hundreds of completely plausible scenarios where either faction could win. Alternately, you could run through hundreds of completely plausible scenarios that totally change the makeup of the factions and neither the Alliance nor the Horde win. If what you're looking for is an answer to: "Which one is the best?" It's a matter of preference.
Post by
Adamsm
We've had multiple threads about this topic;
here are some
and
here be more
; pretty much all of them stalemated or exploded into flame wars....which is actually a pretty good analog to the conflict themselves.
Post by
Lordplatypus
Simple
In a "Total War" Scenario where all races currenlty aligned with a faction (Ie, Jinyu would go alliance, Taunka join horde, So on so on).
This is not about who is awesomer, this is a discussion of the current strategic enviroment of Azeroth
Also, Awesomer is not a word
Post by
lightnstuff
I don't think it's capable to map the scenarios because of three reasons: Magic, Numbers, and Joes.
Magic: Simply put, magic counters those who do not have it, and is countered by those who have more. You can do anything with magic, including wiping out whole cities. It's unquantifiable, especially because of the Numbers.
Numbers: We don't know who has how much of what, especially when it comes to resources. We don't know who eats more, who builds more, and who breaks their own crap more. War or not, people don't work for free.
Joes: It is documented fact that sometimes, and frequently enough in war, that individuals can change the tide of battle, sometimes on a strategic or operational level. As I learned in the book I'm reading (I can't seem to find it at the moment) one american soldier effectively won a battle by himself in World War 2. He managed to score over a hundred kills and in the process went through about four BARs, two bazookas, countless rounds of his M1, Springfield, and even took on the role of mortarman and artilleryman. He recounted feeling upset because some of his fellow soldiers were deciding to have a meal during the whole firefight(there's a psychological reason for this as well). The point is, weird crap happens that can completely turn a fight on it's head, even if the invading or defending force was better armed, larger, prepared, etc.
Post by
Usury
In the current state of things I imagine the Alliance will come out on top, mostly because the Horde has begun to undermine all the workings of the neutral factions. If push comes to shove, I can totally see the Argent Crusade, Ebon Blade, Cenarion Circle and Earthen Ring taking sides with the Alliance. If that happens, I can also imagine Silvermoon withdrawing from the Horde, since theirs is an alliance of convenience anyway, and they'd be in a rather precarious position all by their lonesome in the north. If all this happens, the Horde wouldn't stand a chance.
Post by
Monday
Light, that reminds me of a soldier in the Finnish-Russian war, just after WWII. Essentially, this Finnish soldier, nicknamed the White Death, singlehandedly kill over 700 Russian soldiers. The Russians would firebomb whole lengths of forest just to try and get him, and crack squads of hunters were sent after him.
He killed them all.
Post by
Adamsm
If that happens, I can also imagine Silvermoon withdrawing from the Horde, since theirs is an alliance of convenience anyway, and they'd be in a rather precarious position all by their lonesome in the north.
Well, except for their Forsaken allies, who have been at their backs; I could see those two splitting from the Horde, but they wouldn't be joining the Alliance.
Post by
Lordplatypus
Light, that reminds me of a soldier in the Finnish-Russian war, just after WWII. Essentially, this Finnish soldier, nicknamed the White Death, singlehandedly kill over 700 Russian soldiers. The Russians would firebomb whole lengths of forest just to try and get him, and crack squads of hunters were sent after him.
He killed them all.
That reminds me of something.
Even at 99:1 odds, theres always the 100th time.
Take the battle off samar between taffy 3 and middle force.
Middle force's flagship just by itself outweighed the entirety of taffy 3.
Middle force retreated
Post by
HiVolt
I think we could account for magic so long as we remember how it's been used in the context of battles in the past.
Numbers are harder to put together, especially in respect to resources, but I think force numbers wouldn't be too hard to infer. The Alliance has always had the benefit of a larger civilian base, but the Horde has something resembling a more militaristic society, so even the lowly peon could be counted upon to pick up an axe and fight if need be. As far as their military forces are concerned, I'd think that the numbers would be fairly evenly matched, maybe giving a slight advantage to the Alliance in respect to the actual number of troops they'd be able to field in battle.
I also think that if we were to look legitimately at this concept, we'd have to disregard the idea that single soldiers can kill hundreds by themselves. It's not something that any single soldier is expected to do, so it's not something that we should expect to happen. I'm not saying it wouldn't, only that we can't rely on it, as those soldiers are definitely the outliers in the equation.
Post by
Patty
The Alliance also, because of a higher overall non-military civilian population, would have an advantage in terms of the amount and rate of resources that could be harvested in a total war situation. That said, the Horde would probably have an advantage in the quicker transportation of goods (mage teleportation hax non-withstanding), and with an overall lower demand for food - as the forsaken do not require much in the way of sustenance. This is all conjecture, of course, but can nevertheless to some extent be inferred from what we know.
Post by
Lordplatypus
There we go! See? not a flame war at all
Post by
manicmania
I think we could account for magic so long as we remember how it's been used in the context of battles in the past.
Numbers are harder to put together, especially in respect to resources, but I think force numbers wouldn't be too hard to infer. The Alliance has always had the benefit of a larger civilian base, but the Horde has something resembling a more militaristic society, so even the lowly peon could be counted upon to pick up an axe and fight if need be. As far as their military forces are concerned, I'd think that the numbers would be fairly evenly matched, maybe giving a slight advantage to the Alliance in respect to the actual number of troops they'd be able to field in battle.
I also think that if we were to look legitimately at this concept, we'd have to disregard the idea that single soldiers can kill hundreds by themselves. It's not something that any single soldier is expected to do, so it's not something that we should expect to happen. I'm not saying it wouldn't, only that we can't rely on it, as those soldiers are definitely the outliers in the equation.
Magic is difficult to manage when it's on a mass scale.
Sometimes (most times) magic is situational in WoW as opposed to other games.
Take necromancers in WoW3; their single target dps is meh, and they're relatively squishy (go figure.)
That being said, 5-8 of them and a sufficient amount of corpses with the tech upgrades one could quite easily sweep through with a well armed skeletal army that frankly, would wipe out all groups save for units that had heroes in them; even then they take hard loses but the core of the group (the necromancers) are usually sound.
Sounds good? No?
Well, not really.
As I said before it's hard to manage large groups of spell-casters on a non-individual basis. And their's variables that have to be taken into account with a spell caster like a necromancer;
Sufficient corpses to keep the Skeletal army (which at it's highest tech level, warriors only last 45 seconds) filled with expendable soldiers that cost little to no resources nor do they have any effect on populations.
Rotating the cool down on the Necromancers themselves so as to keep a rotating degree of freshness. If all the skeletal warriors died at once the necromancers would die a squishy death
Using the Necromancers only in hard pushes when corpses are flush on the ground, this goes back to the situational area. You've tied quite a bit of resources into making sure that these guys are ready, have their tech levels maxed and spent a good bit of time on rotating them for what is frankly, an iota of the entire fight and strategy
Now, imagine that you took those three factors into account;
Resources
Strategical importance and uses
management
Take those factors from WoW3 and place them in the current WoW we have (yes, these do apply. we've all done the quest in which we have to gather resources to build a force for some idget that's offering us a menial am mount of gold and experience with the possibility of a rare BoP item.)
What do you get?
An absolute clusterfudge.
When it comes down to it, Blizzard is never going to let either of these forces dominate one another completely.
So long as this game remains a profitable venture; we will have BOTH a Horde and Alliance.
If you want to split hairs about who would win in a hypothetical scenario, pack a lunch- You're going to be here for a very,
very
,
VERY
long time.
Post by
Gone
As soon as I looked at this title a little old man on a boat in my head said "theres a %^&*storm a commin!"
Post by
Lordplatypus
WoW3
Sigh again with Wow3?
Post by
manicmania
WoW3
Sigh again with Wow3?
It was simply an analogy from a strategical maintenance and management point discrediting the use of magic on a mass scale.
You also failed to notice the ending, that being the most important part- The bit where Blizzard would never allow this hypothetical situation to come about -.-
Post by
lightnstuff
I think we could account for magic so long as we remember how it's been used in the context of battles in the past.
Numbers are harder to put together, especially in respect to resources, but I think force numbers wouldn't be too hard to infer. The Alliance has always had the benefit of a larger civilian base, but the Horde has something resembling a more militaristic society, so even the lowly peon could be counted upon to pick up an axe and fight if need be. As far as their military forces are concerned, I'd think that the numbers would be fairly evenly matched, maybe giving a slight advantage to the Alliance in respect to the actual number of troops they'd be able to field in battle.
I also think that if we were to look legitimately at this concept, we'd have to disregard the idea that single soldiers can kill hundreds by themselves. It's not something that any single soldier is expected to do, so it's not something that we should expect to happen. I'm not saying it wouldn't, only that we can't rely on it, as those soldiers are definitely the outliers in the equation.
Magic is difficult to manage when it's on a mass scale.
Sometimes (most times) magic is situational in WoW as opposed to other games.
Take necromancers in WoW3; their single target dps is meh, and they're relatively squishy (go figure.)
That being said, 5-8 of them and a sufficient amount of corpses with the tech upgrades one could quite easily sweep through with a well armed skeletal army that frankly, would wipe out all groups save for units that had heroes in them; even then they take hard loses but the core of the group (the necromancers) are usually sound.
Sounds good? No?
Well, not really.
As I said before it's hard to manage large groups of spell-casters on a non-individual basis. And their's variables that have to be taken into account with a spell caster like a necromancer;
Sufficient corpses to keep the Skeletal army (which at it's highest tech level, warriors only last 45 seconds) filled with expendable soldiers that cost little to no resources nor do they have any effect on populations.
Rotating the cool down on the Necromancers themselves so as to keep a rotating degree of freshness. If all the skeletal warriors died at once the necromancers would die a squishy death
Using the Necromancers only in hard pushes when corpses are flush on the ground, this goes back to the situational area. You've tied quite a bit of resources into making sure that these guys are ready, have their tech levels maxed and spent a good bit of time on rotating them for what is frankly, an iota of the entire fight and strategy
Now, imagine that you took those three factors into account;
Resources
Strategical importance and uses
management
Take those factors from WoW3 and place them in the current WoW we have (yes, these do apply. we've all done the quest in which we have to gather resources to build a force for some idget that's offering us a menial am mount of gold and experience with the possibility of a rare BoP item.)
What do you get?
An absolute clusterfudge.
When it comes down to it, Blizzard is never going to let either of these forces dominate one another completely.
So long as this game remains a profitable venture; we will have BOTH a Horde and Alliance.
If you want to split hairs about who would win in a hypothetical scenario, pack a lunch- You're going to be here for a very,
very
,
VERY
long time.
Again, magic counters itself though. A couple of priests could spam dispel and massacre that entire skeleton army, leaving the necromancers exposed.
Post by
Adamsm
Again, magic counters itself though. A couple of priests could spam dispel and massacre that entire skeleton army, leaving the necromancers exposed.
Aye: Holy magic tears apart Necromatic, Fel is devastated by Nature, Arcane is semi-equal to the Elements; all of the magic of Azeroth has a counter to it.
Also, due to the fact that Necromancy eats at the essence of a mortal(IE use necromancy as a non-demon and you steadily kill yourself), said necromancers have a massive weakness against the Light to, since just like forsaken and Death Knights, the Light will burn away at the impurity within.
Post by
Skreeran
His point wasn't that necromancers are OP, though, it is that magic is unpredictable, and there are thousands of variant strategies where this magic or that magic or these spellcasters or those spellbreakers could singlehandedly turn the tide of battle.
Post by
Lordplatypus
Paladin level 6 or higher runs into battlefield and casts mass resurrect
$%^& got real.
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