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Balancing Dodge/Parry
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Post by
273977
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
atomicwolf22
I reforge based on % in the tool tips.
As the Rating's that make up Dodge and Parry are different. With Pally's have a very low % to Dodge exchange.
Also its not an life or death thing to have them equal. I have 11.5% Dodge and 14.3% Parry on my tank. But I'm geared and Enchanted with correct enchants/gems. And just use food to get the numbers closer.
I try not to have a differance on 1.5% when buffed. But that can be tricky to figure out sometimes.
Post by
dingbot1
Agility doesn't show up as a rating, but adds dodge and is on DR.
Strength actually gives parry rating and is also on DR.
The only things I can think of that are off DR is
Rune of Swordshattering
, and
Chill of the Throne
. Other than that, just use the percentage tooltips.
Post by
161859
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Post by
hatman555
This is probably a dumb question, but I just spent an hour reading stickies, and I never saw the answer. I know Paladin tanks are looking to balance Dodge and Parry because of diminishing returns, but do we balance based on rating or percentage?
hmmmm....from
this sticky
in the
Stats and Gear
section:
Dodge and Parry:
Dodge and parry are the chance to completely avoid a physical attack. Parry used to have more severe diminishing returns than dodge but since the release of Cata, the stats have been rebalanced to have the same rate of return. Dodge and parry should be balanced so that the effect of diminishing returns as a whole is lessened. Balancing can be easily accomplished with reforging, so don't let it affect your gear choice.
Hat
<3 u YJM
Post by
cersoze
I think the ratings should be equal (or near it), not the %. Thas how I gear and reforge Avoidance.
Post by
273977
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Post by
161859
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
hatman555
So balance off the percentages, because there are other things affecting Dodge and Parry besides Dodge and Parry ratings.
No - you got it backwards. You balance off ratings, not percentages. So you want your total Dodge Rating to be close to your total Parry Rating.
Dodge and Parry:
Dodge and parry are the chance to completely avoid a physical attack. Parry used to have more severe diminishing returns than dodge but since the release of Cata, the stats have been rebalanced to have the same rate of return. Dodge and parry should be balanced so that the effect of diminishing returns as a whole is lessened. Balancing can be easily accomplished with reforging, so don't let it affect your gear choice.
***
Important
*** Balance the
percentage
of dodge vs. parry.
NOT the rating.
Fully raid buffed your percentage numbers want to be the same. Un-buffed you should have close to 1% more parry than dodge.
http://maintankadin.failsafedesign.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=646883#p646883
I'm going to go by this. I trust theckhd because he is the source for most of my mathimatical proof anyways. =/
Hat
Post by
273977
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Post by
161859
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
hatman555
hmmm - I thought I remembered reading that the dodge you get from agility is on a seaparate Diminishing Return from straight Dodge Rating. Is that not true?
I think what it works out to is something like this.
Total dodge % = (Dodge rating - the lose from diminishing returns) +
The dodge rating we get from agi, is a lot less than the dodge rating we get from dodge rating (lol) this means that the dodge we get from agi is less effected by DR when added to the total percentage of dodge. Still, the ratings should be balanced on percentages, because that is where the final resolution of the returns shows.
Just to clarify the dodge rating from Agi is effected by DR, but separate from that of normal Dodge rating.
I've gone and read a lot of forums, and with theckhd's math, this is the conclusion that i have come too.
Hat
Post by
161859
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Post by
168916
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Post by
hatman555
I was wrong.
I was miss interpreting the results from some math on another, older source page.
Here are the
correct
front running sources we are dealing with.
Avoidance and Armor: Formulas
Combat Ratings at level 85 (Cataclysm)
Paladin Tank DR Avoidance V4.xls
(still checking the validity of this sheet.)
The following is correct:
dodge from agility and from rating do not diminish separately
.
Source number 3 is a spread sheet that has most of the constants in formulas to calculate diminishing returns. I need to check the numbers to see if they are correct, but that will take time, and access to my wow account, which I will not have until later tonight.
And finally, as I've said way too many times before, this is all pretty academic because the benefits to balancing your avoidance are extremely small. If you're unbalanced by 1%, you're missing out on something like 1.5 rating points worth of avoidance - i.e. a value so small that it will dwarfed by literally any other factor that could be involved.
This is the part I want to check. The values of balancing dodge and parry will be worth more when you are dealing with harsher diminishing returns. If your Raid buffed values have a difference of 1% or more, there can be a net loss of anywhere from 0.05 to 0.2% avoidance total avoidance. Thats more like 10 to 40 rating points per % of difference.
Yes, it small, but as our gear increases, its going to get bigger, and its going to be worth more for the same amount of reforging effort.
Hat
Post by
Onijitsu
Now... is there a short answer to the question of whether there is a "soft cap" to either Dodge or Parry, which we ought to be seeking, where putting more points into either is, well, "pointless"? ;-)
After all, Mastery does not diminish in its usefulness. And might we be better served, at some point, to reforge both Dodge and Parry into Mastery?
Post by
hatman555
Now... is there a short answer to the question of whether there is a "soft cap" to either Dodge or Parry, which we ought to be seeking, where putting more points into either is, well, "pointless"? ;-)
After all, Mastery does not diminish in its usefulness. And might we be better served, at some point, to reforge both Dodge and Parry into Mastery?
There is such a point, and that point is very reachable in current gear.
Avoidance & Mastery
1 mastery rating is better than 1 parry rating for total damage reduction at 952 parry rating, or 10.1896% on the character sheet.
For dodge, this happens at 8.9705% on the character sheet. A rating equivalence is unreliable due to agility raid buffs.
At 10.18% parry, you should be reforging your parry to mastery.
At 8.97% dodge you should be reforging you dodge to mastery.
If you have dodge and parry on a piece of gear, and you are over both ratings, you pick which ever would reforge to more mastery.
Hat
Post by
168916
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
161859
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
hatman555
I took a longer lunch break to do some work on this, and try and get it right. Yes I agree with you that Raid buffed, to best balance DR from avoidance you should end up being at +1% parry.
I used some numbers from one of my character profilers. This example will approximate what could potentially be an imbalance.
Dodge 1226
Parry 1436
Avoidance % loss from DR
--Dodge = 0.7854
--Parry = 0.7855
Final buffed Avoidance %
--Dodge = 12.284
--Parry = 13.307
Difference in Avoidance = Parry 1.0232 <-- This number is the ~1% that we all talk about
Total Avoidance = 25.592
Now I increase the Dodge rating by 123 and decrease the parry by the same amount. I will use the old 1.0232 when looking at how far away we are from the Ideal. I chose to change the stats by this amount because that will give me a 1% change from the Ideal number.
Dodge 1349
Parry 1313
Avoidance % loss from DR
--Dodge = 0.5713
--Parry = 1.0281
Final buffed Avoidance %
--Dodge = 13.173
--Parry = 12.390
Difference in Avoidance = Parry 0.0026
Difference away from the ~1% # = 1.0205
Total Avoidance = 25.5836
Change = 0.0084% loss of avoidance or 1.484 Rating
Therefore 1% off the ideal = 1.484 rating loss
Of course this math is not liner which means, If a person is 1% off the idea he is sacrificing less rating than if he were further away from the Ideal. Here is some of the rating losses you will experience if further away from the ideal value.
% Away from Rating
the Ideal difference Loss
1 1.484
2 6.064
3 13.81
4 24.56
5 38.38
This was helpful for me. I hope I did most of the math right. It looks like fenomas and I are in agreement tho, because my 1% number is the same as his first estimation.
Should we still go out of our way to reforge gear? Yes I think we should. How often should we be reforging out gear to match as closely as possible? Not as often as I once was =P I think I will reforge my gear every time we hit a wall in progresson, rather than every time I get a new piece of gear.
Cheers,
Hat
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