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Lacerate vs. Pulverize threatwise
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Post by
apvalceanu
I would like to start this post by taking as a given the fact that if you Pulverize after 3 Lacerates, your threat will have a considerable boost. That being established here is what i would like to know:
1. Does only applying lacerate generate threat, or does every tic of damage generate additional threat besides the first hit / appliance?
2. If you already have 3 stacks of lacerate, will the use of a 4th lacerate add additional threat even if no new stack will be applied?
3. What does actually generate more threat: the tics from 3 stacks of lacerate or using 1 pulverize and "erasing" the lacerates? This is especially the point i am most interested in. If you consider ONLY 3 stacks of lacerate as opposed to 1 Pulverize with 3 lacerates - which will generate more threat? Again for the moment please neglect the "long-term" benefit that Pulverize will obviously provide, and only consider the action itself of using 1 pulverize.
In the end i am trying to make some sort of idea if it would be better to always have 3 lacerates that tic (meaning that even after i used pulverize once i will then focus on putting the 3 lacerates back and keeping them up), or are the 3 stacks of lacerate there mostly to offer a good pulverize "cannon material"? And what is best for short fights vs. long boss fights?
Thanks all :)
Post by
LookOut
Have you seen lacerate's tick damage? It's pitiful! And for bears, damage = threat. So ... yeah.
How would a 4th Lacerate deal additional threat? What gave you that idea? o_O
The only reason you'd want lacerate to keep ticking, is mangle procs from the Berserk talent. And even then, if you spam lacerate/pulverize decently, you should only have 1 sec of lacerate downtime (aka if you pulverize, do a lacerate immediately afterwards).
That answers all of your questions I think. Some of your questions boil down to the same thing, namely Lacerate's tick damage being low (even lower than Swipe *gasp*!).
Post by
109094
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Post by
710036
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
LookOut
The initial application of lacerate does more damage than swipe or faerie fire plus it causes additional threat. The only abilities that cause more threat are mangle, maul and pulverize.
Translation: if you got 3 stacks of lacerate, you pulverize. End of f**king story.
Unless your mangle is off cd or procs. In which case you mangle.
Post by
109094
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Post by
Heckler
http://elitistjerks.com/f73/t105117-cataclysm_bear_theorycraft/
Posts #1 and #36 are worth reading.
Pertinent highlights:
Lacerate App:
Avg Dmg: 295 + AP*0.115
Threat: 3*(Dmg+2269)
Faerie Fire:
Avg Dmg: 1+AP*0.15
Threat: 3*(Dmg+774 + (96))
Numbers:
5000 AP:
Lacerate = 9417 Threat
FFF = 4863 Threat
10000 AP:
Lacerate = 11142 Threat
FFF = 7113 Threat
FFF surpasses at
~48k AP
(1:1), and
~11.4k AP
(1.5:1 -- only valid if you can use FFF at a true 1 second GCD without repercussion). I don't think this means it's a cut and dry "FFF should never be used in a rotation," given things like Rage cost, GCD, maybe boss armor/resistances... Post #36 shows the many possible "priority lists" you might use, FFF being included in a few. Sounds like the "Rotation" will be a pretty dynamic, situational thing -- which is good.
Post by
109094
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Post by
Heckler
there is the cravat that Lacerates intial damage is modified by armor where as FFF is not tho
Indeed, that (and the 1 second GCD and 0 rage cost having situational usefulness) is why I'm not willing to dismiss FFF as quickly as others. The thread I linked hasn't been updated in 2 weeks either (says build 13195, live is 13329, and I can only imagine multiple changes will be coming tomorrow), so I doubt all the factors for a proper Level 85 discussion are even in place yet.
Eventually, "Absolute Maximum Single-Target TPS" will be important, but until then (sadly), I think we can all survive pretty well by just spamming foley's macro.
Post by
144872
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Post by
apvalceanu
Ok thank you all for the posts. What gave me the idea that a 4th lacerate would add threat is that initial threat other people also mentioned - ofc it was not about more damage/tic or anything of that sort; it was just a "is it stupid or not to hit the lacerate button again after u have 3 stacks?"; i guess it is :P (unless you want to refresh its duration so it will be rdy for next pulverize)... also when i think back of warrior and sunder armor - it always gave me the feeling that stacking it would provide more threat even if the debuff itself is doing no damage whatsoever. Was thinking that just maybe lacerate had a similar threat effect besides the damage-threat mechanic. (ofc this last phrase is on a separate note from "the 4th lacerate" topic)
1 last question - suppose you hit pulverize at 3 stacks, and afterwards applied another 3 stacks of lacerate. (again for the sake of the argument let us neglect other abilities) Would it be better to pulverize again straight away even if the buff from first pulverize is still there, or wait until the buff is gone first? Again i am asking from a threat point of view.
Cheers all again for answers.
PS - hit me over the head if you want but what exactly is "foley's macro"? :P I generally just use abilities according to CD and situation... and i admit - atm a bit lazy to do a thorough search :P
Post by
pelf
there is the cravat that Lacerates intial damage is modified by armor where as FFF is not tho
A
cravat
is a necktie
:)
. Perhaps you meant
caveat
?
ilu
Post by
Heckler
PS - hit me over the head if you want but what exactly is "foley's macro"? :P
From foley's "
Queued Attacks.
" thread:
Bear tanking in one button!
#showtooltip
/castsequence reset=combat/target/6 Lacerate, Lacerate, Lacerate, Pulverize
/cast Maul
/cast Mangle(Bear Form)
It stacks lacerate to 3 and then uses pulverize.
It uses maul when rage permits.
It mangles when its off cooldown and when berserking procs.
As foley pointed out in his post, it's not optimal/perfect, but it will more than suffice for the Kitteh druid who occasionally tanks (and realistically, will probably outperform your average know-nothing baddie as well).
Post by
109094
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Post by
80642
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Post by
pelf
My face, it's stinging.
Post by
710036
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