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10.2.7
PTR
10.2.6
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Bear Threat
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Post by
710036
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Post by
trienn
I'll be the first to say THANKS!
Perhaps Bliz didn't want swipe to be in our rotation, thus, the nerf. However, that effective killed our AOE tanking capabilities.
Post by
80642
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Post by
710036
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
710036
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Heckler
I just did a quick test with Omen, I'm not feeling ambitious enough to be thorough, but my FFF did 969 damage, and it applied 5300 threat. Pretty decent.
Post by
710036
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Heckler
I made this edit late, so I'll just make a new reply;
The fact that it has no rage cost and a 1 second GCD are worth considering. Especially the GCD part, in a non-stop spamming situation, decreasing the GCD by 33% effectively increases the TPS of the ability by 50%.
Post by
710036
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Shadax
I made this edit late, so I'll just make a new reply;
The fact that it has no rage cost and a 1 second GCD are worth considering. Especially the GCD part, in a
non-stop spamming situation
, decreasing the GCD by 33% effectively increases the TPS of the ability by 50%.
The issue with this perspective is that you can not spam FF, because it has a 6 sec cooldown. Is it worth using on the run to the mob: Absolutely. Is it worth using on that same mob at any point after that: No chance.
There is certainly an argument for using FF against other targets that don't have it applied yet, since physical damage will be buffed due to the loss of armor, leading to a higher threat output due to more damage done, but that would require detailed math of time to live for the mob, and how much damage goes up for the armor reduction, based on the initial armor, etc, etc, but once you're in melee range on a target, at the moment, the math doesn't support the use of a GCD for FF unless you're completely rage starved.
Post by
Heckler
I haven't tanked recently, but the cooldown on Mangle isn't very predictable with Berserk constantly resetting it, is it? If this is true, then your point works both ways, Using a Lacerate instead of a FFF might cause you to let Mangle sit off C/D for 0.5 seconds, if Berserk procs at the right time.
Meh, could be wrong, though I still think its worth including in the comparison.
@Shadax: I meant non-stop spamming of anything. Pre 4.0, the 1sec GCD wasn't worth thinking about, because we had 0.5 seconds of "do nothing time" in our rotation anyways. If you're always spamming something, than the "time cost" of FFF is actually 1.0 seconds. Again, I haven't tanked much recently, but it seems to me the Berserk reset of mangle's cooldown is random enough that you can't lock yourself into a 6-second time window like we used to do anymore. Every GCD will be a decision process, and if FFF generates more threat (per unit time) than lacerate, it might be the right decision.
Let's say our numbers above are right, FFF is worth 5k and Lacerate is worth 6k. If we can truly use FFF at a 1 second time cost, then FFF did 5k TPS and Lacerate did 4k TPS. Again, I'm not trying to argue that I'm right, just that these things should be taken into consideration.
. . . at the moment,
the math
doesn't support the use of a GCD for FF unless you're completely rage starved.
I haven't done the math, but so long as the things I'm saying were taken into account in doing that math, then I won't argue the point anymore. =)
Post by
710036
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Heckler
Another thing with the Mangle procs. Maybe it's because I'm old and slow, but the majority of the time when it procs I've already hit my next ability before I have a chance to use it and have to wait until that ability is done before I can use the Mangle proc. This pretty much eliminates any benefit the FFF CD would have for me due to an inability to utilize it quickly enough.
From a different angle, this actually
supports
using FFF in a rotation, because if FFF happens to be the ability you just used prior to noticing the proc, you'll get to Mangle 0.5 seconds sooner than if it had been a lacerate.
Post by
710036
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Heckler
Well, I'm done arguing about it. I don't even tank nowadays, and I'll even admit that FFF is
most likely
not worth including in a rotation. I just like to analyze things, but I think I've beat this dead horse enough. Things like Latency and response time will shift around your 6 second window and knock the whole 'integer multiple of 1.5' concept out of whack... and doesn't haste affect bleed timers now somehow? Or maybe that's just like an "extra tick if you have enough haste" kinda thing...
Regardless, as I said, I don't have any more constructive things to say about it, and without much 4.0 experience, I'll just concede that I'm wrong. Even if including FFF was "better" it would probably be only slightly better, and only in a very conditionally dependent way that would make it not worthwhile to try anyways.
Edit: For the record, FFF also scales with AP, and at a faster rate than Lacerate according to wowhead (0.115*AP for Lacerate, 0.15*AP for FFF). Using the Level 85 numbers, FFF will do more damage (by tooltip) above 8400 AP. I also think Lacerate's front end damage is Physical (non-bleed), meaning it wouldn't be boosted by Mangle, and would be reduced by Armor, whereas FFF is Nature and will not be reduced by armor. But as you said, FFF does indeed have a lower Crit chance, and a higher miss chance too I believe... Any of what I just said could be wrong, and even so, I still agree with you that FFF is probably out. The most convincing argument IMO is that you get to pulverize more often.
Post by
710036
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Shadax
@ Heckler - I was referencing the anecdotal math in this thread, which was the only referenced data so far.
So, reading your other posts, I think I see the point you're making now Heckler. By using a 1 second GCD ability, you have the opportunity to move all of your attacks up by a half second. Waiting for the 6 second FF cooldown to end means you'd have a half second of dead time if you were waiting for FF, yes, and that seems to be the point Rokk is making. It would appear that the best option then is not to use FF right as it comes off of cooldown but immediately following the ability you use while it's coming off of cooldown. If I use FF (1 sec), then I use 3 other abilities (4.5 sec), I have a half second till FF comes of cooldown, but if I go ahead and use another ability (1.5 sec), then FF has been off of cooldown for 1 second, so I use it now, further moving up my other abilities by half a second. This is a 7 second cycle to use 4 abilities of choice and a FF. After 21 seconds, you've done this 3 times, resulting in 12 abilities and 3 FFs. If you avoided FF entirely, you'd have used 14 abilities of choice.
This would indicate that if 3 FFs are better than the 2 abilities you'd use of choice (at minimum: 2 lacerates), it would be worth putting it into a rotation like this. Using the math provided in this thread, that would say it would be worth it.
I would counter that applying lacerate again half a second before the last application would reset the DoT, but as I recall, they changed that in one of the more recent patches so that 'clipping' dots is no longer a concern. Then you could argue that the ticks of lacerate would proc a mangle half a second after you just used an ability, but if you're spamming abilities anyway, you're never going to use a mangle on the GCD it is procced, because you've already activated an ability for that GCD before it happens for latency reasons.
Post by
Pouned
I strongly concur with your findings about threat.
I have been going around in Icecrown Citadel doing hard modes in 10-players,
and tried over several days the difference between Swipe and Lacerate on
single target. It appears to be clear than on single target, Lacerate really
does more threat than using Swipe.
Thank you for those numbers and your research.
Post by
Pouned
What about Trash we get at level 81 ?
Since it's a bleeding effect, with dots that tick and receive the Mutilate bonus,
do you people consider using Trash inside the single target "rotation" (let's rather talk or priorities).
Post by
LookOut
What about Trash we get at level 81 ?
Pleasepleasepleasepleaseplease
please
don't call it trash -_-
Trash is:
What you put in a trash can
Packs of mobs between bosses in instances
Thrash is:
To swing or strike in a manner suggesting the action of a flail / to beat severely
An AoE bleed used by bears so that they are viable again
Also:
receive the Mutilate bonus,
wut? o_O
Ferals are no rogues,
GTFO
!
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