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10.2.7
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WoG tanking
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Post by
138583
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Xiamaru
Percentages is a common problem, and often misinterpreted throughout all of WoWs mechanisms.
Lots of mount discussions involve this as well, where people have issues deciding how much
Pursuit of Justice
,
Crusader Aura
, and similar effects, affects your movement speed. But as a general rule, when blizzard states a % in a tooltip, they usually take it as
additive
, mean they add it to whatever value you already have.
Default 80% damage reduction on all dps classes was made 100% though.
Just to clear things up, he means "threat from damage done", as 100 % damage reduction would mean perma-divine shield. This was done to "balance things out" apparently, as this 25 % increase in threat should be enough to make up for the 50 % increase in threat that tanks does (I believe they were all at roughly 200 % of normal threat pre-patch)
I still think it unbalances things greatly, giving tanks a 50 % boost in threat, while dps classes only gain 25 % - and add to that the fact that tanks now deal dps-like damage, and I don't see us having threat problems ever again. But we'll see once we hit 85.
Not aggresive at all. I stated several times i am unsure about the mechanics.
He said learn from that. Just do it, instead of countering his suggestion.
No Grand crusader? Lmao.
Reckoning? Rotfl. It was weak pre changes to seal damage. Its even worse now when seals hit like wet noodle.
Divine guardian instead of Ardent defender? Serious?
I'd use something like this:
http://www.wowhead.com/talent#sMZhrhfRzdRMuc:kco
SotR is hardly spammable. WoG tends to.
Look at this comment. You hardly stated you were unsure of anything, quite the opposite. No Grand Crusader? Yeah, not smart, but why? The guy asked for help, and all you did was make a fool of him, and make yourself seem like you know exactly what you are talking about. In other words, being a jerk.
To answer the OP in-depth:
I see few problems with your build.
Seals of the Pure
isn't exactly a bad choice, albeit as stated, it have diminished in value, since the seal damage have been reduced a bit. So
Eternal Glory
is a viable choice.
Avengers Shield
hits harder than a truck, and is
the
best, dps tool, at least for me, for both single target, but even more so multitarget.
Grand Crusader
allows you to use it even more, which means it ups your damage output significantly. This is one of the talents that allow Paladins to do dps-like damage.
Reckoning
increases single target threat, but the extra attacks can give bosses parry haste, which that when they parry, their next attack comes faster. If luck is against you, you can risk getting gibbed quite fast from successive parries. This mainly applies to Raid Bosses, as the hardcap on Expertise is so high it just isn't worth shooting for. This becomes a problem when Raid Bosses are the guys you want additional single target dps against. For this reason, Raid tanks will typically avoid this talent.
Divine Guardian
is highly situational. The situations in which this can make or break an encounter, are rare, and is the reason it isn't really considered worth the slot. In my opinion, it is mainly a PvP talent, Arena or Battlegrounds, as that is the main situations in which a lot of people around you will be getting hit.
Otherwise, it can be used as an off-tank for a Safe-Guard effect. Using this against the LK can be effective. You will essentially be using it as an additional damage reduction cooldown for the main-tank.
Ardent Defender
is a spell I hate with a passion. It is highly underwhelming compared to what it was, and what other tanks have access to. I can understand why you skipped it, as I did once too. But as stated already, it is a second Damage Reduction Cooldown, and something all tanks will want.
But here comes the issue. This is all directed at raiding, as most of these comments are. You stated you want to use it for Heroics and Raids, but you have to remember that the difference between the two is massive. The build you posted would allow you to faceroll pretty much any Heroic, regardless of how bad the healer is. I 4-manned Utgarde Pinnacle as a Prot Paladin, using a spec slightly focused at WoG as well, with me as the tank, a mage, rogue and Death Knight. No healers at all, and we still pulled through. I admit I did swith to
the glyph
, but we just couldn't find a healer, and we were impatient. But it still worked.
For Raids, you have personally assigned healers. If you need to heal yourself, you need to find better healers. No encounter is, or will ever be, designed to force tanks to self-heal, as both warriors and druids lack proper tools to do this (they have a few, but no reliable self-healing tools like a Paladin or Death Knight does), so don't worry about your self-heal abilities too much.
If you don't want any other role than tanking, you should consider spending a mere 100 gold investment on Dual Spec, and use 1 spec for Heroics, and 1 spec for Raids.
I'd also like to point out another important note in all of this: Little of this is something I have figured out. It is theorycrafting from others, and especially at the current time with changes being made every now and then, some of it might be out-dated already, and some of it might be outright wrong to begin with. I know what I've read, but something doesn't become true because it have been said here, or any other wow-forum. Keep this in mind at all times when creating your build. It is hard to create a poor build these days, so the most important thing remains the same: If you know how to play your class in its current role, you can do well. Post-patch 4.0, no build can make or break an instance or raid run, as long as you keep to your primary role (prot for tanking, holy for healing, ret for dps - but this hopefully shouldn't be something that needs to be said).
Vindication
is great, but it will
not
mean it is required to prevent your death in any encounter. If it does, you need to take a serious look at your gear.
Post by
Xiamaru
Also, Ardent Defender HAVE been tested, and it is
working as intended
You simply don't know how it works.
Read the Tooltip
, please. We had a large thread a while ago about this, and it is clear when you think about it, why it seems to not work.
While Ardent Defender is active, the next attack that would otherwise kill you will instead cause you to be healed for 15% of your maximum health.
It means you get healed by 15 %, which is exactly what happens. If you have 5 % hp, get hit with an attack that deals more than 20 % of your total hp, you die. That's basic calculations. You have 5 %, get healed for 15 %, 5+15 = 20, so if you get hit for 20, you die, because 20-20 = 0
The problem with the old way it worked was, that it allowed you to survive mechanics that SHOULD have killed you. This doesn't. This is the reason it is so bad now, compared to before, but it is a fair change, in my opinion.
I tested it as well, and found my so called "proof" that it doesn't work, but with further testing after figuring out how it really works, you can see that it does indeed work. I've survived hits with 5 % health left, and with 2 % left, but also with 12 % left - it will rarely leave you at 15 %, as that would mean you got hit by something that would only "just" have killed you.
Post by
138583
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Squishalot
Zakkhar, you're not in heroics. Everything is easy mode when you're levelling, especially so as a Paladin. I used to level an alt with a macroed Hand of Reckoning / Exorcism pull, Judgement, and auto-attacks while I went off and did meaningful stuff. 12-pull gnoll / murloc camps? No worries. But when you're hitting the AoE cap, your Consecration will make up a significantly larger portion of your damage than when you're running early heroics or raiding. And when you're solo'ing heroics, you probably won't be getting more than 1-2 groups per pull anyway.
Btw, can you explain the unparriable/undogable sensation i am experiencing on HotR? Whenever i try to check my Cstrike damage i usually get parried/dodged like 20% of tries, sometimes 40%. I am constantly checking my HotR parses and never seen any dodge/parry. Just hits and crits.
No idea, except that the holy wave damage of HotR would be spell damage and not parry/dodgeable. Could be that the initial hit may be bugged and also not parry/dodgeable, but more likely that it's a 'special' attack so that a parry on the main target doesn't lead to zero AoE damage.
Post by
Xiamaru
Aggressive indeed...
I meant threat reduction. A typo. That has nothing to do with what you wrote. Read the context.
I know that. I only highlighted it so no one would get confused. You wont believe how much "knowledge" some people get from forums like this, because of a simple typo most people would think obvious. I've seen Shadow Priests believe they can heal due to a talent that increases healing done by some effect by x amount, that apparently made them think it was better healing to deal damage, than to actually heal (I have little knowledge of priests, so I have no idea what the guy was talking about - I only know he was wrong, because of a stupid typo someone had made on a forum he visited). It had nothing to do with you.
What do you want me to learn? How to be someone else?
You made fun of someone who was wrong. No one is right all the time, just accept it when someone tells you that you are wrong. It helps move the discussion further.
Read the damn tooltip? Any Paladin that ever tanked post patch knows it hits like a truck.
Or check the comments on wowhead under the talent. People are making shrines to it. Avenger shield from hardly ever use ability to pull things at distance, became strong part of the rotation (nr 1 priority for me).
I couldn't agree more with you, but the OP doesn't know. Telling him to read the tooltips is great and all, but he isn't even level 80 yet - you can't expect him to know his class as well as you do. Everyone is a noob at all of the classes at some point, and he is still at noob at being a Paladin tank. Let him learn. A tooltip doesn't make it clear whether it is good or not, and if he started out as a tank pre-patch, he will most likely think of Avengers Shield like you did back then, when Avengers Shield was something you used rarely, when you needed to silence and pull, and only rarely besides that - we didn't have any free GCD's for it back then, because of the 969 rotation.
I am sorry that I cannot discuss like equals with people who fail to read tooltips. I cannot discuss with people who ask for help on a site which already has plenty of help on it (comments on talents, stickies). Its basically a "play my character for me" request. This is what i done. Played his character for him. He doesnt need to understand, in fact it seems he doesnt care to understand. Its his first post on these forums and only in this thread.
Was this really how you understood him? I thought of it as a "How good does this idea sound?". I can't find this "how do I play this game?" request anywhere in his question.
Chill out, no one is out to offend you. I understand how hard it is to explain things to someone who doesn't understand them. You aren't supposed to treat them as equals. They are asking for help because they know people here are wiser than themselves.
Post by
648104
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Xiamaru
thanks for all the input lol and i double checked my spec what i posted was off here is my armory
link
http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Alterac+Mountains&cn=Lunarra
and the reason i didnt have AD in the spec i posted is because i dont use it lving considering with my WoG spamming and healers i never drop below 80% health at 80 i intend to change the spec around
I'd still put Grand Crusader in that spec :P Unless of course we are still seeing the old Armory profile, not entirely sure if they fixed that.
At least in the spec that i'm seeing, Grand Crusader is the one major thing you should have. Crusade, however, is also very powerful, and shouldn't be skipped either. Divine Guardian and Reckoning is probably what I would take from, and maybe Ardent Defender as well, since, as you say, while leveling, AD hardly makes a difference.
But since you say you will be changing spec at 80, it might not matter anyway. I just know that Grand Crusader speeds up the killing a lot. Avenger's Shield is nothing to sneeze at.
Post by
pezz
Btw, can you explain the unparriable/undogable sensation i am experiencing on HotR? Whenever i try to check my Cstrike damage i usually get parried/dodged like 20% of tries, sometimes 40%. I am constantly checking my HotR parses and never seen any dodge/parry. Just hits and crits.
No idea, except that the holy wave damage of HotR would be spell damage and not parry/dodgeable. Could be that the initial hit may be bugged and also not parry/dodgeable, but more likely that it's a 'special' attack so that a parry on the main target doesn't lead to zero AoE damage.
I wonder if it works off the same mechanics as judgment. It shouldn't, but there's still a lot of bugs.
Post by
138583
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
143098
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
blademeld
theck, if it's not too much to ask, can you explain why you've said to gem red sockets for 9 stamina but not yellow sockets? That's been bugging me from the first time I went through your matlab. I'm wondering if you just meant 2 for the Meta requirement and I've been reading it wrong.
Also, as for another favour, can you tell me the coefficient for HotR Nova? I don't have an active account at the moment for testing and I don't seem be be capable of finding it through a simple net search.
I should probably mention here that I think you're doing a great thing for the paladin and other tanking classes. Thanks for all your hard work.
Post by
Squishalot
Btw, can you explain the unparriable/undogable sensation i am experiencing on HotR? Whenever i try to check my Cstrike damage i usually get parried/dodged like 20% of tries, sometimes 40%. I am constantly checking my HotR parses and never seen any dodge/parry. Just hits and crits.
No idea, except that the holy wave damage of HotR would be spell damage and not parry/dodgeable. Could be that the initial hit may be bugged and also not parry/dodgeable, but more likely that it's a 'special' attack so that a parry on the main target doesn't lead to zero AoE damage.
I wonder if it works off the same mechanics as judgment. It shouldn't, but there's still a lot of bugs.
That was my thought too. The main difference is that Judgement is actually a ranged attack, so it shouldn't be parry/dodgeable.
...
Good to see you over here at Wowhead. Like blademeld, I'd like to thank you for all your efforts in furthering the Paladin theorycrafting community.
Post by
Ophilil
Ty theck for stepping in here and clearing things up and all your pally theory crafting work, it saves me a lot of time :P
For level 80 the healing prot build I use is:
http://www.wowhead.com/talent#scZhrGcRdzRRuz:VckmzZm
The only reason I have this spec is for H LK add tanking. We have a DK tank MT and he mastery still beats out my self-healing, but it makes life a lot easier for our healers. I tank adds, stun a valk each round, and then taunt all the valks shooting their drain life balls. Occasionally I take a soul reaper, and having the absorbs is nice there too.
I threw my glyphs that matter. Everything is to maximize self healing and shielding through Guarded by the Light. I have Glyph of Hammer of Justice because there's nothing much better and when I'm tanking 3rd Raging Spirit after first transition it actually helps.
For overall viability, you do lose some amount of threat. It's not a problem for most ICC fights (bad on deathwhisper). I was still fine tanking Hs with it and MT bosses, just had to watch our fury warrior's threat.
Unless you are part of H LK or Herald of the Titans runs your probably better off going with a more dps/tps build if your healers don't need the help.You can slip the 2 points from Imp. Hammer of Justice to Seals of the Pure if you don't need the stun, and you probably wont.
Post by
299264
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
143098
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
blademeld
I personally pick up 9 stamina bonuses of any color if it only costs 1 non-blue gem, using dodge/stam or parry/stam for yellow and red sockets respectively.
Alright, that makes sense. Just to let you know, that's not what you say in your gear list and had me confused.
That means 30 stam in every blue or yellow socket, but instead of agi/stam in red sockets I've used parry/stam (assuming they give 9 or more stamina per red gem).
On live it's 18.7% AP before crusade and spell damage debuffs are applied. The formula I use is:
((523+783)/2+0.187.*player.ap).*mdf.spdmg.*mdf.Crus
mdf.spdmg is the spell damage modifier for the target (1 for a dummy, something like ~1.12 for a boss with spell damage debuffs applied). mdf.Crus is just the Crusade multiplier, so 1.3 if fully talented.
For future reference, if you're willing to decipher a bit of code, the latest formulas are always available in the
ability_model
module of the
matlabadin project
. Right now, we're updating the code for Cataclysm, so the latest version will have beta coefficients, but you can always turn back the clock to the
final 4.0.1 version
if you want coefficients for live. Note that I won't be updating for 4.0.3, it won't be around long enough to warrant spending time on it.
Much appreciated, I didn't know there was a code section to it as I haven't looked much into mathlab itself.
Post by
Squishalot
On live it's 18.7% AP before crusade and spell damage debuffs are applied. The formula I use is:
((523+783)/2+0.187.*player.ap).*mdf.spdmg.*mdf.Crus
That's interesting, no SP scaling?
I'm also intrigued by Exorcism:
(1985+2215)./2 + 0.2.*max()
Is that actually the case? Exorcism no longer benefits from both SP and AP, but only the one which is higher?
I'll try to make a bigger effort to keep track of the updates to the code, and post updates on Wowhead as it comes up. The Google-hosted code is great - no software required. I think I recall the last time I tried to use any of your Matlab code, I needed to fire up Matlab, and it's not something one can be bothered doing just to check something minor sometimes :P
I don't pop in here all that often, sorry to say. I just don't have the time to keep up with all the different forums out there, and it's already tough enough keeping up with Maintankadin, EJ, and the occasional visit to tankspot. I usually just pop in over here when someone directs me to a particular thread of interest. I actually stumbled upon this one in exactly that fashion.
I meant it generally speaking, not that you'd be lurking here :) I'd love to see the Wowhead community take a bigger theorycrafting role in the scheme of things, so all going well, we'll see if we can interest you to come over more often than you have in the past.
Again, thank you for all your contributions to the Paladin community.
Post by
blademeld
That's interesting, no SP scaling?
If I may speculate, it might be because you don't get SP from Vengeance, and that could have been blizzard's method of fixing.
I also noticed that the spells are far different than the coefficients listed on Wowhead, which I've been primarily relying on, which makes me sad... that Wowhead doesn't have the right numbers for some of the things.
Post by
143098
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
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