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The "Holy" Trinity
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Post by
138638
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Hyperspacerebel
The trinity is a condensed way of offering varied gameplay. If everyone can do anything, then what class you play is irrelevant. It's condensed because there are many other rolls that exist in rpgs: buffer, debuffer, controller, aoe-er, diplomat, trap/lock disabler, scout. The problem is that not enough people want to play niche classes like that, so they get rid of what they have and condense the rest into the 3 roles of the trinity.
Post by
Squishalot
Providing that you can switch stances and weapons quickly enough, and assuming that your healers are on the ball, you'd last a lot more than 5 seconds.
Just saying.
I think WoW is what it is because of what it is. It's not that it'd work better or worse with a different systems, but it wouldn't be WoW. Unless you're asking whether a different system would work in the WoW universe?
WoW is essentially based on an RTS universe. In the RTS universe, you have tanks, DPS and healers, but it's a lot softer because there's little death penalty. It translates well - as a team, you want the hardiest people to soak up the damage.
The Hybrid system doesn't work that well, because it encourages solo efforts. There's little difference between 'soft' and 'hard' trinity as you describe it, other than the time in which DPS can survive whilst tanking, or that tanks can survive with DPS healing, etc.
Post by
138638
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Hyperspacerebel
I never thought about the niche roles and their leading to jobs like debuffer AOE-er etc. I always though it was vice-versa.
Those
are
niche roles.
Post by
138638
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Squishalot
Tip: Don't make a thread about the trinity while doing math homework or else the word "tank" will somehow end up in the quadratic forumla
This is where your grades start tanking....
How would WoW not be WoW with a different system, I can see how it wouldn't with the hybrid system. But couldn't a softer version of the trinity work well in WoW, while still keeping it WoW.
This is my point earlier - there is no real difference, other than how long it takes for your non-tank tanks to die. But the majority of encounters in WoW are designed in such a way that there are generally wipe consequences if you lose a couple of team members (be they boss buffs, raid debuffs or enrage timers). So there's no point creating a system which allows you to recover from tank losses, when as a raid, you won't. And if you change the system to allow for that, it just becomes too easy, meaning you have to ratchet up the contrived-ness or increase the duration of the encounter to make it challenging, neither of which are particularly enjoyable.
Post by
Monday
The trinity is a condensed way of offering varied gameplay. If everyone can do anything, then what class you play is irrelevant. It's condensed because there are many other rolls that exist in rpgs: buffer, debuffer, controller, aoe-er, diplomat, trap/lock disabler, scout. The problem is that not enough people want to play niche classes like that, so they get rid of what they have and condense the rest into the 3 roles of the trinity.
This pretty much.
From my days of playing RPG's, you had very specialized roles. Now the whole thing is "bring the player not the class", if you know what I mean.
Post by
138638
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Post by
Squishalot
Turn it around another way.
I would much rather a fight like the first two encounters in ToC5 where there is more chaos and more diversity in conventional units, rather than random mechanics like Heigan. WoW is inherently based on an RTS universe, and it'd be nicer to have some of that group-on-group warfare. 3 tanks, 5 healers and 17 DPS is just boring. Let it be a fair fight - a 25 on 25 PvP battle would result heavy losses on both sides. Let's see an encounter that would actually leave people dead, due to attack focusing, focusing down healers, etc.
Oh wait, then we'd hear no end of QQ from players who died early.
Post by
184848
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Post by
184848
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Hyperspacerebel
The trinity is a condensed way of offering varied gameplay. If everyone can do anything, then what class you play is irrelevant. It's condensed because there are many other rolls that exist in rpgs: buffer, debuffer, controller, aoe-er, diplomat, trap/lock disabler, scout. The problem is that not enough people want to play niche classes like that, so they get rid of what they have and condense the rest into the 3 roles of the trinity.
In other words: "Things are the way they are and are fine that way. There's no need to push the envelope and attempt to make things better or different because that way it would obviously be inferior to what is already established."
What the hell is it with people and drawing things out of my posts that aren't even remotely there lately?
Are you trolling, or did you really not even read what I wrote?
Post by
tuckmuck203
I beg to differ. I believe WoW has a soft trinity. My enhancement shaman was able to tank one of the worms in ToC10 with only 1 healer. And there were only 4 people left alive at the time. He was the only healer left. I can't quite remember, but I think he was disc. I would assume a plate DPS would have an even easier time of it.
Post by
487010
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Post by
Squishalot
This is exactly what ArenaNet is trying to accomplish with Guild Wars 2, but their solutions are a bit superior to yours... you're kind of just looking at it from the perspective of a game that is mechanically the same as WoW, but if you think about it this model is capable of functioning perfectly in a game that is specifically designed for it.
I know I am - but that was my point earlier. WoW as it stands doesn't work as anything other than what it is. If you changed it to function differently, it wouldn't be WoW as we know it. I haven't seen Guild Wars 2 yet - I'm not enough of a gamer to have time to check it out, unfortunately.
Really? Because I've been playing RPGs since I was like 7 years old and I didn't encounter the tank/damage/healer model until I started playing MMOs 8 years later.
I'm not sure that you're disagreeing with Funden. He's agreeing with Hyper in that there were a number of unique roles in RPGs that didn't fall into 'tank/damage/healer. What's a Paladin in D&D? It's a mixed fighter/healer class. Clerics are similar. Any plate wearer can 'tank'.
It's interesting that by comparison, you can get a wargame like Battletech, more closely aligned to RTS than to MMORPG, yet with RPG elements such as detailed 'character' sheets and hit tables. Battletech never had any tank/DPS split, for example.
Post by
Monday
Really? Because I've been playing RPGs since I was like 7 years old and I didn't encounter the tank/damage/healer model until I started playing MMOs 8 years later.
That's not what I was saying at all. I meant you had the person for blocking damage, the trapper/untrapper/lock picker, the ranged, the buffer, the utility, the jack of all, etc. Need I continue?
Post by
Orranis
Really? Because I've been playing RPGs since I was like 7 years old and I didn't encounter the tank/damage/healer model until I started playing MMOs 8 years later.
That's not what I was saying at all. I meant you had the person for blocking damage, the trapper/untrapper/lock picker, the ranged, the buffer, the utility, the jack of all, etc. Need I continue?
He's pretty right here. Any DnDer who sent their Wizard in first and had their Paladin trying to be a Shockadin 30 feet back while their Ranger heals will get destroyed.
Fighters, Paladins, and Barbarians were 'tanks,' and to a lesser extent Rangers, Druids and Clerics. Healer's were Clerics, with Druid's and Pally's as the back up healer.
DPS was a rogue, a ranger, a wizard, sorcerer, etc. Fighter's depending on their Feats.
Of course, this is a lot more rough given to more selection of Feats/Skills, as well as Class Skill choice (Range/Two Weapon Fighting for Ranger's for example), and much less arbitrary (Druid tanks in wild shape, comes out, warrior takes over), and that's not even counting Prestige Classes (Blackguard/Ranger would probably make a fine tank), but it was there.
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