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The Easter spirit - bringing discussion back into Randomness.
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Post by
Squishalot
So, to get away from the serious business of revolutionising Randomness, I figured bringing up some Easter thoughts would help bring us back to the serious business of being random.
And since HSR hasn't been around for a while, so there's little point in me reviving his Catholic thread, here are a few thoughts from the Catholic Vigil mass that I attended on the weekend.
1) In the opening passages of Genesis, God is referred to as 'they'. Does that imply a pantheon?
2) Later in Genesis, Abraham is asked by God to sacrifice his son, and is stopped by an angel. Does this mean that he's putting what an angel said over what God said?
3) In Exodus, God tells Moses that he "will harden the hearts of the Egyptians and they will stubbornly follow you, whereupon I will collapse the waves down upon them and destroy them" (paraphrased). Isn't this a contravention of the free will concept?
4) If Christians paraded outside an Athiest convention with placards, shouting slogans, there wouldn't be an issue. If athiests paraded outside a church with placards, shouting slogans, chances are that they'd be dragged away by the police. Double standards, do you think?
5) If we are all God's children, and he's the heavenly Father, then why do people insist on saying that he sacrificed his "
one and only son
"?
6th and finally - All things considered, isn't worship of Jesus akin to congratulating a sock puppet for the things the puppeteer does?
Open for discussion. What else did crossed your mind over Easter?
Post by
Adamsm
How much food I was going to eat; Bhuddist and Hindu beliefs here.
As for your other things:
1. The Father, the Son, the Holy Ghost.
2. He was never meant to sacrifice his son, God just wanted to see if he was willing to listen or not, and sent the Angel to stop it.
3. No, because the person who wrote the Bible had a differing view from the Egyptians.
4. Of course, but that's how it is.
5. Jesus was the flesh of the Lord, the rest of us were just beings He created.
6. Merely a part of the overall being.
Post by
149406
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Squishalot
How much food I was going to eat; Bhuddist and Hindu beliefs here.
I think everybody else was concerned that they would eat too much :)
1. The Father, the Son, the Holy Ghost.
There's no passage elsewhere in the Old Testament referring to the Holy Trinity. As such, there's no precedent to believe that the plural refers to that.
2. He was never meant to sacrifice his son, God just wanted to see if he was willing to listen or not, and sent the Angel to stop it.
Still though - shouldn't his first response have been to say "but God told me to do it?" If your head-of-state instructs you to do something, and then a policeman comes up and tells you to stop, would you immediately stop and breath a sigh of relief, or would you question why he's asking you to stop?
3. No, because the person who wrote the Bible had a differing view from the Egyptians.
What does the views of the writer have to do with what God explicitly said? There are few points where God and Jesus are quoted as saying something, and they're the ones that are generally held as immutable.
4. Of course, but that's how it is.
Yes, of course, but is that how it should be?
5. Jesus was the flesh of the Lord, the rest of us were just beings He created.
What evidence is there to say that Jesus was any less created than the rest of us?
6. Merely a part of the overall being.
True. But I don't think that you would congratulate the sock puppet for a good performance at all.
My question, to all the atheists/agnostics that are on the internet - there are certainly many - is this: what exactly do you believe happens after death? Is there a specific reason that you don't believe in any sort of higher being, whether you find it silly, or unlikely, or just choose not to simply because you don't believe?
Atheists, I think, don't believe because there is insufficient evidence to believe, or that there are other better explanations. Think about quantum randomness - which is a more likely explanation - that inherent randomness exists, or that we can't observe the characteristics that result in seemingly random effects?
As an agnostic, I honestly don't know what happens, and I'm curious to know, but I wouldn't throw my faith behind any of the mainstream religions.
The thing about agnostics that is commonly misinterpreted is that they don't believe in anything. That's not true - they believe that there may be a supernatural power in the universe, but they're not aligning themselves with any particular religion. A Christian friend of mine thinks that Agnostics believe in aliens. If God is an alien, well, sure.
Post by
124027
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Adamsm
Still though - shouldn't his first response have been to say "but God told me to do it?" If your head-of-state instructs you to do something, and then a policeman comes up and tells you to stop, would you immediately stop and breath a sigh of relief, or would you question why he's asking you to stop?Angels are the Mouth of God though heh; and seeing as the first thing all of them say is "Fear Not" are you really going to disbelieve what they tell you heh?
Yes, of course, but is that how it should be?As long as Humans exist, this will be the norm unfortunately.
What evidence is there to say that Jesus was any less created than the rest of us?Immaculate conception or whatever it's called; Jesus is an actual child of God, one He shared part of his 'flesh'/'essence' whatever you want to call it with a Human woman, a 'virgin' even when she gives birth. We were 'forged' by Him out of the same substances he used to create the rest of the World.
True. But I don't think that you would congratulate the sock puppet for a good performance at all.Heh, remember watching Sesame Street when you were younger?
Post by
Squishalot
Essentially: I don't know what happens after death but I'd be very interested in finding out.
I was going to say that, but I didn't want to sound too excited about finding out :)
Actually this one was decided by election in the early Christian church. Same as the divinity of Jesus.
That doesn't preclude it from being open fodder for Bible study.
Angels are the Mouth of God though heh; and seeing as the first thing all of them say is "Fear Not" are you really going to disbelieve what they tell you heh?
Fear Not, you will do as I command, muahahaha! I'm fairly certain that Satan could appear as an angel if he really wanted. Trickery, illusions, if you'd actually been commanded by God to do something, you wouldn't be slightly sus if one of his subordinates (which is what they are, really) said something to the contrary? Or is Abraham just acting selfishly?
As long as Humans exist, this will be the norm unfortunately.
No, it's just positive discrimination. In Australia at least, there is a higher proportion of agnostic/athiests than Christians. Take Christians out, use Muslims instead, and you'd have the same result. There's no reasonable reason to have double standards. "It's the way it's been" isn't an excuse.
Immaculate conception or whatever it's called; Jesus is an actual child of God, one He shared part of his 'flesh'/'essence' whatever you want to call it with a Human woman, a 'virgin' even when she gives birth. We were 'forged' by Him out of the same substances he used to create the rest of the World.
We don't worship Adam and Eve up there with Jesus, nor do we identify them to be divine. If anything, Adam is more the son of God than Jesus is.
Heh, remember watching Sesame Street when you were younger?
I do, but if you're suggesting that Christians have the logical mindset of a 6 year old, then I think you'll find some people may object :)
Post by
Queggy
There's no passage elsewhere in the Old Testament referring to the Holy Trinity. As such, there's no precedent to believe that the plural refers to that.
Because the Old Testament was written for the nation of Israel. At that time, the messiah (Jesus) hasn't come yet and neither had the Holy Spirit. They were only concerned about the Father. Therefore, they weren't mentioned. I mean, it mentions that God is a Trinity (if I remember correctly) but that's it.
Still though - shouldn't his first response have been to say "but God told me to do it?" If your head-of-state instructs you to do something, and then a policeman comes up and tells you to stop, would you immediately stop and breath a sigh of relief, or would you question why he's asking you to stop?
An angel was a physical manisfestation of God's will. Abraham wouldn't question one.
What evidence is there to say that Jesus was any less created than the rest of us?
I'm not sure what you're asking here. Jesus is fully human and fully God. He is God in human form. Read the Gospels of Matthew, Luke, etc. for more info.
Post by
Adamsm
Fear Not, you will do as I command, muahahaha! I'm fairly certain that Satan could appear as an angel if he really wanted. Trickery, illusions, if you'd actually been commanded by God to do something, you wouldn't be slightly sus if one of his subordinates (which is what they are, really) said something to the contrary? Or is Abraham just acting selfishly?No, because He would never ask someone to sacrifice another against 'their will'; and before you leap on it, Jesus knew what was coming.
No, it's just positive discrimination. In Australia at least, there is a higher proportion of agnostic/athiests than Christians. Take Christians out, use Muslims instead, and you'd have the same result. There's no reasonable reason to have double standards. "It's the way it's been" isn't an excuse.I honestly think it's hardwired into us heh.
We don't worship Adam and Eve up there with Jesus, nor do we identify them to be divine. If anything, Adam is more the son of God than Jesus is.Actually... no heh, if you really look at it, we're merely one more animal that God created, one with a bit more intelligence, but still an animal heh.
I do, but if you're suggesting that Christians have the logical mindset of a 6 year old, then I think you'll find some people may object :)Hey, you made the puppet comment heh.
Post by
Gumballs
My question, to all the atheists/agnostics that are on the internet - there are certainly many - is this: what exactly do you believe happens after death? Is there a specific reason that you don't believe in any sort of higher being, whether you find it silly, or unlikely, or just choose not to simply because you don't believe? I'm not going to judge, don't worry =)
Hmm, well, I don't know if I would consider myself an atheist, but I'll answer this question from my own point of view anyways. I don't practice a religion, and I don't know if there is a god (or multiple gods, or spirits, or even a higher power). It's not that I don't
believe
.. I'm just kind of torn between belief and nonbelief. Kind of hard to explain really xD. I guess I'd call myself more of a spiritual person.. I live how I want to, I try not to do bad things, and I do believe in karma and stuff.
I do really like the idea of religion, of having a higher power. I took a world religion class and I loved it.. there are so many things about all religions that are just amazing. But I'm just not sure if I can really believe in a god or gods, and I'm not sure why. I find myself wondering though.
I honestly think we have an afterlife though. I'm not sure what, but we can't just just be living these lives we have for nothing. I think it would be great to see our loved ones and stuff, and I really like the idea of reincarnation as well.
I don't know.. just my two cents on my personal views of this topic. :)
Post by
Squishalot
An angel was a physical manisfestation of God's will. Abraham wouldn't question one.
People throughout the Bible questioned angels at varying points of time. Abraham didn't even give an "Are you sure?"
And all things considered, the entire world is a physical manifestation of God's will. What do you think about the "Egyptians being influenced by God to ride to their deaths" point?
No, because He would never ask someone to sacrifice another against 'their will'; and before you leap on it, Jesus knew what was coming.
Of course he knew what was coming, he is God, which is part of why I think the whole self-sacrifice thing is a bit silly. It's like saying "You want to enter my club, you follow these rules... Oh alright, never mind, I'll waive it for you, here you go." If God really wanted us to join him in Heaven, he could just make it happen. Having Jesus crucified was merely an exercise in showmanship.
Hey, you made the puppet comment heh.
I did indeed. And you countered the puppet comment by saying that we attribute praise to the puppets on Sesame Street, as if that justified why Christians give praise to Jesus :)
Post by
107106
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Post by
Squishalot
I'm an atheist. What do I do? D:
Troll your local church with a placard and slogan signs and argue against double standards. :)
Post by
107106
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Post by
Adamsm
Of course he knew what was coming, he is God, which is part of why I think the whole self-sacrifice thing is a bit silly. It's like saying "You want to enter my club, you follow these rules... Oh alright, never mind, I'll waive it for you, here you go." If God really wanted us to join him in Heaven, he could just make it happen. Having Jesus crucified was merely an exercise in showmanship.Uh... no, Jesus was meant to die to absolve us all of our Sins. As for the first part of the comment; sure, as soon as we're born we can go straight to Heaven, but then the Soul doesn't grow and become more then it is, which ruins the point of living in the first place.
I did indeed. And you countered the puppet comment by saying that we attribute praise to the puppets on Sesame Street, as if that justified why Christians give praise to Jesus :)I don't think you got what I meant heh; I was saying, that even though there is something there in front of the overall thing, you can still feel proud about it... and that's really confusing lol.
Post by
Queggy
An angel was a physical manisfestation of God's will. Abraham wouldn't question one.
People throughout the Bible questioned angels at varying points of time. Abraham didn't even give an "Are you sure?
What specific reference are you looking at?
And all things considered, the entire world is a physical manifestation of God's will. What do you think about the "Egyptians being influenced by God to ride to their deaths" point?)
However, angels are God's messengers and soldiers.
As to the Egyptians, we can't really be sure what exactly happened when God hardened their hearts. What would that entail? We can't be sure.
Post by
Squishalot
Uh... no, Jesus was meant to die to absolve us all of our Sins. As for the first part of the comment; sure, as soon as we're born we can go straight to Heaven, but then the Soul doesn't grow and become more then it is, which ruins the point of living in the first place.
Consider why absolution of our sins is an important, and then reconsider my point.
I don't think you got what I meant heh; I was saying, that even though there is something there in front of the overall thing, you can still feel proud about it... and that's really confusing lol.
I didn't get what you meant, and to be honest, I still don't get what you mean lol.
Has someone ever tried to convert you into their religion? Did you find it annoying, did they persevere with it until you snapped?
Plenty of people have tried. I think they find it more annoying than I do, and typically, they're the ones who've snapped and given up. My best mate from uni is an Anglican Christian, and he and I used to regularly do 'Bible study'. For both of us, it's an intellectual discussion. For others who might try and engage with me/us in the same way, the discussion typically gets too passionate for them, and they give up.
What specific reference are you looking at?
Are you asking about Abraham's response to the angel, or the other questioning responses?
However, angels are God's messengers and soldiers.
Just like other messengers and soldiers, appearances can be deceiving. Certainly, people today believe that they see angels too - do you a) believe that them when they say they do; and b) believe that the angel they see actually brings God's message?
As to the Egyptians, we can't really be sure what exactly happened when God hardened their hearts. What would that entail? We can't be sure.
Can you mount a reasonable argument that suggests that it doesn't amount to an override of free will? I'm willing to hear your thoughts on the issue.
Post by
260787
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Post by
Squishalot
I don't need to know that I'll live on forever or that I'll see my loved ones again or even eternal happiness
Whoever told you that you'd be with your loved ones in Heaven is wrong. Heaven = relationship with God, and that envelops your whole (new-life). The classic problem with being with your loved ones would be the case where a widowed person remarries...
I only get annoyed when they attempt to tell me that they feel bad for me and that I live a life not worth living. That's when I snap back because I think it's pathetic to even go down that route.
What brings the conversation to that point? The only time I've been told that I live a life not worth living was when a pastor in Singapore was preaching hellfire and brimstone to the whole congregation (as most churches in Singapore seem to do) and that we need to do this and this and that to make our lives meaningful again.
It's stupid that she is trying to make me become a christian.
Would you try to convince her out of Christianity? Or anyone, that their beliefs are stupid? Conversion goes both ways.
She's doing so because she believes she is helping you. Presumably, if she was part of one of those crazy death cults and preparing for a mass ritual suicide, you'd be trying to convince her out of it too. Would it be fair to call you stupid for trying to make her divert from her chosen path?
(See? I'm happy to argue both sides.)
Post by
149406
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