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Post by
ArgentSun
Hey, you might remember that I made an appearance or three in this forum over the last few days. Normally me showing up in here is nothing to fret over - I like lore, and I like RPs, so I swing by and check on the latest theories. Lately however, my visits have been of more... professional character. So allow me to talk about a few things.
If you have been an active user of the Wowhead forums, you might have noticed that there are certain forums that get a little more love from certain Staffers. Skyfire keeps an eye on the Mage forums, the admins watch General and Site Feedback, I frequent the Paladin forums... and Lore & RP, of course. If we were perfectly objective, which would be the ideal situation, we would divide our time equally between all the forums, we would be able to watch for anything suspicious going on, and pretty much be able to stop whatever problems arise even before they arise. This, unfortunately, is not the case, so we watch whatever reports we get from users, and then keep an eye on our "forums of choice" - the forums that interest us personally.
Long story short, I care about this forum more than I care about most of the others. I might be wrong, but when I think about a lore forum, or a RP forum, I think about a place of somewhat sophisticated discussions, civil debates, and lots of argumentation, evidence, and hard information tossed around. I don't imagine private server advertisement, I don't imagine spam, I don't imagine pointless threads. I don't imagine name-calling, YELLING, and mocking. I don't imagine bad manners.
This being said, a lot of unimaginable things have been happening lately. Deleting replies, locking threads, having to warn users to watch their tone... I like this forum, I like it personally. No, I am not at all objective when I moderate it - I don't close my eyes for trolls, I don't just sigh and close the browser.
I want this place to be good.
Now that I am done revealing my soul, let's get to the particular problems at hand.
There are some users I have come to think of as the "backbone" of this forum. Skreeran, Adamsm, Septimus, MorecofRivendare, HiVolt, and to a lesser extent a few others. Those are users I (almost) never have to deal with - their posts are meaningful, their grammar, punctuation, and post formatting - pleasant. They try to keep discussions going, even when the thread is derailing. No, they are not perfect. Neither am I. But they are as good users as I can find here, and I am happy with them. And, do you know what I like the most about them? They not only don't engage in trolling activities, they try to constructively prevent them from happening, or stop them if they have already happened. Ponder that for a while.
On the other hand, there are some users I have come to associate with trolls. No, I am not going to call out names here, but chances are, if you have even the slightest suspicion that I might have something against your posting, then these following lines are for you.
There is something I have been noticing lately, and this something has been the main reason for most of the fights these days. Want to know what that thing is?
Faction hate
. Instead of debating the pluses and minuses of the important characters in the Alliance and the Horde, you choose one faction (likely your favorite), close your eyes for almost everything dirty about it, and try to make the other faction's flaws so huge, so unforgivable, that even the simple act of supporting that faction makes a user here a subject of your hate. Read that again, please. I have seen, more times than I am willing to acknowledge, a few users insulting not only the faction of their "adversary", but the person himself/herself. Yelling at and insulting somebody, because they don't share your belief? A lowly way of living, wouldn't you agree?
You all know what I am talking about. Sylvanas and her Royal Apothecary Society experimenting on, torturing, and killing members of the Alliance, possibly even children. Varian Wrynn and Garrosh Hellscream insisting on an open all-out war against the other faction. The Lich King's humanity. Those are some of the topics that ignite the flames.
To all of this, let me ask only one, plain and simple question. "
So what?
"
The guy next to you thinks Sylvanas is as evil as the devil himself. Okay, so what? Ask that guy to explain, or even better - prove that she is evil. Be a step ahead of him, say "evil is subjective term" and ask him to explain what he means by it. Engage in a conversation, start a discussion, debate,
learn
, for Light's sake! We are not here to prove the others wrong, and us - right. We are here to exchange information and enrich our understanding of the world (of Warcraft).
'
And
,' you ask '
what if the other guy is insulting me, calling me names, and clearly ignoring and/or misunderstanding everything I say? What do I do then?
' Then you ignore them. If one refuses to see logic, no amount of logic will make them see it. If you try to explain your thinking and reasoning through civil conversation, and that other guy is still singing his own song, not getting to the evidence you are bringing to the table (and you should bring some solid evidence, not just speculate!)... well, then go ahead and report them
and ignore them
. Trust me, there is nothing more annoying for a moderator than seeing a user report another user for flaming/trolling/insulting, and then moving on further down only to see that first user responding with equal amount of flaming/trolling/insulting. "I reported him, so now I can respond in kind" does
not
work.
Now, this has grown longer than I wanted it to, but some things had to be said. Some things had to be left out, hopefully not having to be said ever. And if you only skimmed through everything I wrote, not caring to read so much, then let me leave you with a concluding sentence or two, so you get the moral of the story.
Flaming, insulting, and strongly emotional responses will accomplish nothing. Only through calm conversation, logical arguments, and solid evidence will you achieve what you want. Whatever you want.
P.S. This is a game, for the love of God! Fiction!
(##RESPBREAK##)140##DELIM##ArgentSun##DELIM##
Post by
Skreeran
Well said. I merely hope that people take heed of this and attempt to mend their ways. I truly like this forum. It's like my home away from home on the internet. It's disappointing to see it in this state.
Post by
Vaeku
Yeah, very well said. I like this forum as I'm very interested in many things in the lore, and it is hard to carry on a conversation with all of the flaming and hate. And it's not even the faction hate I've noticed, but hate towards specific races. And it's really annoying when one of those races is my favorite race. I don't hate any of the races as each of them brings something unique to the Warcraft universe, but I do have my favorites.
Post by
Patty
It's disappointing to see it in this state.
Yup, it really is. I mean, there may have been some disputes before a certain user (not naming names) Joined, but they were generally argued without flaming, and with some actual evidence or theorycrafting - Sounds like utopia now, right? To be honest, I've completely given up on debate threads now, because there is no
actual debating
occuring. The flaming is getting pretty ridiculous now, as you can see from looking at the front page.
But...While I'm here, and seeing as this thread is unlocked, I think I'll just say something about this;
I have Adamsm, Patty, occasionally Interest, and Skreeran going "Stop fighting" every 5 posts. Helped a lot, it really did...
It's difficult to do anything when we are in no position to actually do anything. :P
You and other mods have already given numerous warnings, so we remind them. If no action is taken, then users will keep flaming, keep trolling and generally make the board what we don't want it to become. What I'm trying to say, as politely as possible, is that action needs to actually be taken rather than empty threats. No disrespect or offence intended, because I do actually respect you as a mod.
-
To the actual topic - well said, Argent and I'm glad to see your stance on it, as I've been waiting for about 4 months to see it. However, I can all but guarantee that if this is all we get from the mods, L&RP will continue to devolve, and the flaming will remain just as ruthless.
Post by
HiVolt
Thanks for making this thread, Argent. Although I sincerely wish that it didn't have to be made.
The Lore & Roleplaying community around here is very small. We have maybe 12 or so core users with about another 7 or 8 who pop in a little less frequently, and that's about it. Really, the last thing we need are users to start getting banned.
What we want to try to do is make this board as accessible as possible. To the common user, just wanting to get a lore-related question out there, or to the new lorefiend user, insults and blunt argumentation without diversion are a turn-off and a big one at that. They shouldn't have to come onto the board and see this stuff. They shouldn't have to come to this board and end up not wanting to participate just because of a few people.
Like Argent, I love this forum and this particular board especially. I've come to think of all of us as a group of friends, who are each very different. In all honesty, there is no person that I have come to dislike that participates on this board. There have been times that I've been a miffed about the situation of a debate or discussion thread, but at no time have I truly wanted one of our few users to be banned permanently.
This ridiculousness has to stop. We don't help any situation with trolling or flaming. Not only does it cause people to get too riled up, it turns those possible new users away from posting. The latter is something that should never happen.
We should be an open and inviting community on this board, not a board full of hatemongers.
Post by
Dralas
Well put, Argent. The last two weeks or so there's been a lot of trolls and such lately. I don't know why there was an increase all of a sudden, but it seemed to die down again (for now).
I've tried to help break up arguements before, but I haven't really stayed around to hag long enough and see that through. Just some of the locked topics get so bad I really just try to ignore them altogether at some points.
Either way though, good update and thanks!
Post by
taurenmoo812
I'm all for this Argent. I really am. My last thread that I started for a perfectly cival debate became the target of trolling and flame wars. It was not my intention to have that happen and certainly never the reason I would start a topic in the first place.
I highly respect the thoughts and opinions of people like Adam, Patty, HiV0LT4G3 and Rankkorr, whos a devoted horde fan as myself. It makes for an intresting debate on having abjective and objective thoughts and ideas on certain subjects, to the greater extent I like the community here.
I know people might also view me as a troll, given I end up getting into a flame war that someone else might start up. I go on the defensive when someone insults or flames something that means a lot to me in lore, but given the past times its happened I have tried to better myself against this. As Patty said, I've taken to just reporting trollers themselves rather then going into a flame war again if I can help it. (Though I would like to know if my reporting of said posters is what causes the thread to be locked in the first place).
As someone who is a believer in the balance of all things, I feel having a balanced opinion of something is just as meaningful, regardless of my own beliefs is more healthy a subject when both sides are see from the other side.
Post by
ArgentSun
Reporting a thread only makes us look at it. We always try to clean up, and only if it's impossible/not worth the effort, then we lock.
Post by
Adamsm
I do love this board, and I hope the flaming eventually dies down again and we can actually have good debates(and I know I have a weakness for a few users, but I'm working on that heh).
Post by
451455
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
ArgentSun
Skreeran's thread is locked temporarily, so things can cool down.
Post by
Adamsm
Ah cool, so it will open back up.
Post by
Interest
Wow. Thanks for posting this Argentsun. It makes me have renewed faith that the moderators love their boards and care for them very deeply.
Although.....I'm part of the "backbone" of Lore and RP? Since when? =D
Post by
Monday
Ah cool, so it will open back up.
That would be nice. I like Skeeran's threads he makes a lot.
And I personally am the Alliance, but if you look over what I post, you can see that I also agree with some parts of the Horde and disagree with some of the Alliance. I try and play it cool and look at both sides, which I am sad to say most people cannot seem to do.
So TL;DR: I am saddened by the state of the Forums where people don't read and just flame topics. I sincerely hope this will change in the future, and hopefully the future comes early :D
-Funden
Post by
Rankkor
hey all I can say is that as long as no stones are trown in my way, all stuff will be cool, just look at the post of "cairne's honor guard" a user there,. without any reason whatsoever was completely rude to me.
did I responded in kind? nope, reported and moved on.....
plain and simple
if there's something I HATE behond anything else, is fakers, scammers, liers.
when someone posts a shred of lore, wihtout ANYTHING solid to back it up, there u'll have me ready to burn that pile of lies down.
and this is not faction biased, because I burn down all fake lore, be it against horde or alliance.
if someone wihtout any sort of proof, or evidence to back up his claims says that velen is secretly kil'jaeden, and asures 100% taht's true, there I'll be to debate taht liar and prove just how wrong his or her lies are..
all I ask is that when putting up a post, either put lore (quests, quotes from NPC's, books, comics, u get my drift) or specificly say that it's unconfirmed, and simple speculation.
the main diference between skree and u darkton is that skree does indeed takes wild guesses, and speculations sometimes, but he backs up his claims by quotes, lore, research, just look at how polished his thread on the plage was...... it was spotless.
you can't just trow fake lore out to the street with nothing solid to back it up and expect everyone to accept it.
I for one will not....
as for the insults, and this can be confirmed by cheking several posts (including but not limited to the last pages of "varian thread" and the pages from 70 to 78 of the "general lore thread" as well as teh "Jaina: delutional or intuitive") that I'm never the one who trows teh first stone.
never.
so long as nobody atacks me, I will not do the same.
after all I've been here for over a year, waaaay before darkton joined, and before he joined I never had fights with anyone, even when I did had heated debates with several alliance fans like addams and thechamp, all of them where civil.
why? because neither of them trew a stone at me for disagreeing with them....
that's an example some plp should learn
I'm not saying I'm 100% inocent or a victim here, because there are 2 ways of commiting a sin on this forum.
starting a fight, or continuing a fight.
I can confess that I have continued a fight, but (adn again this can be confirmed as I'm not a coward that deletes his posts) I NEVER EVER start the name-calliing or the personal atacks, ever.
Post by
313143
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
229054
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Gumballs
Nicely put Argent, even though I'm like the 10th person that's said that. :)
The L&RP forum is pretty much the only one I post on. Occasionally I head over to general or whatever, but this is my main stop, and I really like the people that I've met on here.
I've always stayed out of the debate threads for two reasons.I'm not that big of a lore-geek and I know if I post I will probably say something inaccurate.
But the main reason is because of the flaming, full out arguing and the personal attacks I see happening so often on them. It's always turned me away.
Hopefully you posting this will help stop the flaming, trolling and all that stuff that has been so common on the L&RP boards lately, and maybe encourage a few more people to join up on here/post more often.
Post by
Gryphon
Nice Argent, I've been on a delete spree myself, was about to address this issue with other staff. L&R has been getting a ton of reports lately, I am not into L&R so I just see what is reported and move on, but I do see some repeat instigators. I have also seen people report happy, just spam reporting anyone they disagree with (
a reason I am reading this thread at this moment
), this is no better than trolling threads and has consequences too.
Post by
234467
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
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