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Best Runeforge?
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Post by
andrewsjba
what is the best runeforge for unholy dps?
Post by
Naxxos
Fallen Crusader. Hands down.
Post by
hashmel
2H dps=fallen crusader
Dwield dps= fallen crusader (MH) / razorice (OH)
2H tank= stoneskin gargoyle or swordshattering
Post by
138583
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
hashmel
so a 2hand only rune is meant for duel wielding? ok....
sword
shattering
gives 4% parry and is completely unaffected by DR
blood benefits the most with spell deflection and if you're already def capped without a rune then all stoneskin gargoyle gives you is 2% stam and some minor avoidance that will be reduced by DR
it's a matter of preference, 2% more stam vs ~3.5% more avoidance
Post by
Aris
it's a matter of preference, 2% more stam vs ~3.5% more avoidance
25 defense skill = 1% dodge, 1% parry, 1% chance to be missed
So even if your over the defense cap, gargoyle gives you 3% avoidance and 2% stam.
So its 2% stam vs 1% avoidance.
Post by
pichu
it's a matter of preference, 2% more stam vs ~3.5% more avoidance
25 defense skill = 1% dodge, 1% parry, 1% chance to be missed
So even if your over the defense cap, gargoyle gives you 3% avoidance and 2% stam.
So its 2% stam vs 1% avoidance.
not to mention that 25 def skill basicly frees u from stacking any def gem/enchant on ur gear and lets u go for avoidance/hp pool on every slot
Post by
MegaVolt
not to mention that 25 def skill basicly frees u from stacking any def gem/enchant on ur gear and lets u go for avoidance/hp pool on every slot
But if you are already def capped (by items alone - t8/t9 items have a lot of def rating on them) then you already have all your enchants/gems free. Ofc +25def is awesome for starting tanks. But I see the point in well geared tanks chosing a different enchant.
25 defense skill = 1% dodge, 1% parry, 1% chance to be missed
So even if your over the defense cap, gargoyle gives you 3% avoidance and 2% stam.
So its 2% stam vs 1% avoidance.
I think his main point was that def rating has diminishing returns. 25 skill gives those 1% as undiminished values. If your avoidance is already very high then those 3% are diminished and end up to be more like 1%. So it's 2% stam vs 3% avoidance. Or 2% avoidance. It just depends on how far into the diminishing returns you already got.
That's why for not so well geared tanks the gargoyle wins hands down. For extremely well geared tanks having 4% undiminished extra parry might very well be worth it.
Post by
138583
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
MegaVolt
That's why for not so well geared tanks the gargoyle wins hands down. For extremely well geared tanks having 4% undiminished extra parry might very well be worth it.
Well geared tanks stack Sta like crazy therefore Sta bonuses (especialy multipliers) > avoidance.
You got your causality mixed up.
The reason why well geared tanks stack stamina above all is that avoidance stats don't benefit them anymore since they are eaten up by diminishing returns. It's not that generally sta > avoidance, it's just that undiminished sta > heavily diminished avoidance.
Having a runeforge that adds flat parry without diminishing returns is totally awesome for a well geared tank since it's the only way to get more avoidance.
Also keep in mind that avoidance gets better the more you have. Assuming the tank has 50% avoidance already adding a flat 4% gives him 54% (obviously). So out of 100 incoming damage he will on average take 46 damage instead of 50. That's 8% (!) reduction in overall damage taken. Quite awesome I'd say!
Post by
138583
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
hashmel
it's a matter of preference which you take
/end of gradually escalating argument
and now for a
chuckle
Post by
pichu
That's why for not so well geared tanks the gargoyle wins hands down. For extremely well geared tanks having 4% undiminished extra parry might very well be worth it.
Well geared tanks stack Sta like crazy therefore Sta bonuses (especialy multipliers) > avoidance.
You got your causality mixed up.
The reason why well geared tanks stack stamina above all is that avoidance stats don't benefit them anymore since they are eaten up by diminishing returns. It's not that generally sta > avoidance, it's just that undiminished sta > heavily diminished avoidance.
Having a runeforge that adds flat parry without diminishing returns is totally awesome for a well geared tank since it's the only way to get more avoidance.
Also keep in mind that avoidance gets better the more you have. Assuming the tank has 50% avoidance already adding a flat 4% gives him 54% (obviously). So out of 100 incoming damage he will on average take 46 damage instead of 50. That's 8% (!) reduction in overall damage taken. Quite awesome I'd say!
that last calculation is either a missunderstanding or a manipulation, and doesnt rely on any real math.
that COULD be valid for damage mitigation, but not for avoidance.
u cant mix oranges and potatoes, lets say.
if u already have 50% avoidance, adding 4% more just means u will be hitted by 46/100 attacks, instead of 50/100, thats a 4% flat diference.
talking about the topic again, a average dktank geared on ulduar25/totc10 is around 520 def skill without a single enchant or gem, what still makes stoneskin gargoyle rune the best option.
5 pieces t8.5 gives 294 def rating before bonuses,5 pieces t9 (ilvl232) gives 299 def rating before bonuses, 5 xt9.5 gives 338 and 5xt9.5hc (ilvl258) gives 384.
so lets state for a moment that the average defense on each slot is increased on the same % with the item lvl. then u should be deep geared on toc25 man to be able to reach the def cap either without a single enchant/gem and/or stonskin gargoyle rune.
and that lvl of gearing is possible for maybe... 10% of the DKtanks on a whole server? so it still looks that 90% of the guys who have a DKtank will be picking stoneskin gargoyle instead of any other rune ^^
Post by
MegaVolt
that last calculation is either a missunderstanding or a manipulation, and doesnt rely on any real math.
that COULD be valid for damage mitigation, but not for avoidance.
u cant mix oranges and potatoes, lets say.
if u already have 50% avoidance, adding 4% more just means u will be hitted by 46/100 attacks, instead of 50/100, thats a 4% flat diference.
No argument about the second part. Yes, for almost every DK tank the gargoyle will be better. It requires extreme gear levels for other runes to be viable - but it is possible.
My calculation on the other hand was completely right and in no way a misunderstanding and certainly not a manipulation. It works for mitigation (it certainly is valid there, no "could") and it works for avoidance just the same.
46 and 50 attacks - that's a 8% difference, not 4%. 50/46 = 1.08 (rounded).
The boss will hit you with 4% of his attacks. So the damage you receive is reduced by 4% of the
full
boss damage. Since you receive only 50% of that full boss damage anyway (with 50% avoidance) a reduction of 4% of the bosses full damage equals a reduction of 8% of the damage that is taken by the tank.
To make it even more clear: Just assume for a moment that it is possible to 96% avoidance. A tank having 96% avoidance would still be hit occasionally. Not add the rune - 100% avoidance, the tank is never ever hit.
So the rune reduces the damange the tank takes to 0. Going from whatever damage the tank was taking before to 0 makes the rune give 100% damage reduction to the tank. That's a LOT more then 4%.
So make it simpler:
The first 1% (going from 0% to 1%) is worth about 1% damage reduction.
The 1% increase from 50% to 51% is actually a 2% reduction in tank damage taken.
The 1% increase from 99% to 100% is actually a 100% reduction in tank damage taken.
Post by
Bonurmum
But I see the point in well geared tanks chosing a different enchant
The above arguing against you are correct.
Any decently endgame geared DK is stacking stamina, which will scale a ton more so with a 2% increase than a 1% dodge will
Take me for example.
Base HP w/ RoSG is 35k HP and 60% avoidance
Base w/ Swordshattering is 34.3k and 61% avoidance
almost a 1k HP loss (more giving the scaling of buffs I could get) at the gain of 1% avoidance which is subject to RNG, not a smart choice at all.
Post by
hashmel
just wanted to elaborate on the above poster's explanation
going from 50% to 51% avoidance is the equivalent of going from 0% to 2% effective avoidance
as 1 is to 50 what 2 is to 100
with frost presence, veteran of the third war, and kings as a given..
1.06
*
1.03
*
1.1
= 120.098% stam bonus
toss in stoneskin gargoyle..
1.20098 *
1.02
= 122.49996% stam bonus
you gain 2.49996% stamina with stoneksin gargoyle fully raid buffed
with say 3k stamina fully raid buffed that's a gain of 74.998....75 stamina....750 health
so ~750 health fully raid buffed vs ~8% "effective avoidance" uneffected by DR (a little less due to you scraping some out of SG's def after DR)
once again the runes are both valuable tanking runes depending on what you need and for the majority of the gaming community not def capped from gear will lean toward stoneskin gargoyle
Post by
138583
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
MegaVolt
Where you got 8% undiminished and unrng avoidance all of a sudden? Dual wield? Effective avoidance? What? A new theory without any arguments? Great.
Please just read my post. I know it is quite long but if you want to argue here I would at least expect you to read the stuff that was posted already.
The 8% are explained in full detail there.
The above arguing against you are correct.
Any decently endgame geared DK is stacking stamina, which will scale a ton more so with a 2% increase than a 1% dodge will
Take me for example.
Base HP w/ RoSG is 35k HP and 60% avoidance
Base w/ Swordshattering is 34.3k and 61% avoidance
almost a 1k HP loss (more giving the scaling of buffs I could get) at the gain of 1% avoidance which is subject to RNG, not a smart choice at all.
As has been said before: It is way more then 1% avoidance. Flat avoidance from things like talents talents and the rune isn't subject to diminishing returns, the avoidance from defense is. The 3% you get before diminishing returns from stone gargoyle end up being around 1% for a very well geared tank so on a very high level of gear it is 2% stamina versus 3% avoidance. This also has been posted in this topic numerous times now. Please read all the posts before you try to argue.
I'm not saying that avoidance is clearly superior in this situation since it is not. It's a matter of personal preference. If you have enough HP to survive 2 hits from the boss you want to tank (5 second rule) then I'd go with higher avoidance. If you need the HP boost to make it through 2 hits then you should go with stamina.
Post by
138583
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
MegaVolt
This is nowhere near logic. Its manipulation. Get to politics man, you are wasting your talents on these forums.
You try to calculate things while changing point of view in the middle.
It's simple math actually. Go to college if you don't understand it but please stop babbeling about relativity here, it's just silly. Just to avoid future embarassment for you: The theory of relativity doesn't say that "the not-relative" matters. In fact the theory of relativity says that there are intertial frames which are all equal. There is no special "not-relative" frame. But this really has nothing to do with the problem here since we are not talking about coordinate transformations but about basic algebra.
Last try to explain this as simple as possible. Seriously, if you don't get it then go to a math class:
Let's assume a boss hits for 1 damage each once a second. This damage can either be avoided or not.
The tank has 100 hitpoints and we assume that the hits are perfectly averaged.
0 avoidance lets the tank take 100 damage in 100 seconds and the time to live (TTL) is also 100 seconds.
50% avoidance lets the tank take 50 damage (on average) in 100 seconds and (average) TTL is 200 seconds.
Increasing avoidance from 50% to 54% reduces the total damage taken within 100 seconds to 46. Going from 50 (that's the damage the tank was previously taking, the obvious point of reference) to 46 is a change of roughly 8%.
TTL with 54% avoidance is (on average) 217.4 seconds. Compared to the previous 200 seconds that also is an increase of about 8% in TTL (all roughly rounded, damage and TTL aren't actually symmetric but explaining that would go a little too far here).
Let's compare that with a 2% increase in stamina: The tank has 102 life now.
At 50% avoidance his TTL then is 204 seconds. Quite a bit less then the 217.4 he got from picking avoidance (again: all on average).
So if we could get rid of rng and the average would always happen then avoidance would always be superior to stamina. Sadly this is not the case and rng will make sure that there are unlucky streaks in which avoidance completely fails. This rng is the only reason why stamina is great for tanks.
But if you already have enough stamina to survive 2 hits from the boss and there is no way to ever get enough stamina to survive 3 hits from the boss - then there really is no point in getting 2% stamina when sacrificing that much avoidance for it.
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