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Stat Weighting Presets: Post the latest updates here
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Post by
Malgayne
So the
weight scale
presets on the site have a tendency to get out of date very quickly. We want to avoid this, but we don't have enough people to do the theorycrafting ourselves—even trying to find and validate the theorycraft that other people have done is extremely difficult and time consuming—especially if you don't play the class in question.
So with that in mind, I'm posting a thread like this in every class forum. What I need is for you guys to let us know what the latest theorycraft is for your class and spec—whether it's Pawn values, an EJ post, something from ShadowPanther, Rawr, or whatever it may be. With this information, we'll be able to keep the weight scales up to date more easily, and make sure we always have the latest info.
What we need:
The actual weight values for each statistic
A link to the source information for the theorycraft
About when the theorycraft was done (to make sure it's recent)
Don't forget that no possible set of weight values will be right for EVERY character. Remember that the weight values should be calculated for a character who is
not capped
on any stat. We're looking primarily for weight scale results for fresh players of the max level here.
If the weight scales have gone too long without being updated, just put up a post in
Site Feedback
directing our attention to the relevant post in this thread.
Please Note:
Any post in this thread which is NOT a weight scale post will be deleted. Gotta keep this clean.(##RESPBREAK##)8##DELIM##Gnub##DELIM##
Post by
Heckler
FERAL DPS (Cat Form):
Here are my numbers (Subpar non-raid gear, not capped for any stat) when plugged into ToskksDPS calculator (These are not normalized and represent actual DPS increase per stat):
AP........................0.2925
FAP......................0.3510
Str........................0.6318
Agi........................0.6463
Crit Rating.............0.5553
Hit Rating..............0.3971
Expertise Rating.....0.3971
Haste Rating..........0.3384
Armor Pen. Rating..0.4188
(This is not
my
theorycraft, just what I've been using in lieu of an accurate wowhead.com scale)
Source:
http://druid.wikispaces.com/ToskksDPSGearMethod
(Discussion of the development is on the discussion tab of this link)
Toskk indicates that it is updated whenever changes are announced, and is currently accurate for patch 3.1.2.
Post by
pelf
Another set of numbers for Cat DPS are here:
http://elitistjerks.com/f73/t49702-feralbynight_cat_bear_simulation_tool/
His simulator and his simulations are WIP and are updated constantly.
Stat Points DPS Value
Armor Pen 30.3 1.80
Agility 25.0 1.49
Strengh 23.8 1.41
Hit 22.7 1.35
Expertise 22.7 1.35
Haste 21.1 1.25
Crit 20.1 1.19
Feral AP 12.0 0.71
AP 10.0 0.59
Those are the stat weights for Ulduar-level gear. They vary somewhat minutely from the pre-Ulduar stat weights. Nightcrowler's data favors Armor Penetration over Agility more than Toskk or Rawr do.
Applying those seems to generate accurate suggestions at least as far as the currently estimated BiS gear goes.
http://www.wowhead.com/?items&filter=ub=11;gm=3;gb=1;wt=114:21:20:117:119:103:96:97:77:123;wtv=30.3:25:23.8:22.7:22.7:21.1:20.1:12:10:-100
Filtering it to levels 35-50 seems to also give good results.
The weights that parra gave in the feedback forum were also reasonable and produced good results. I think any of these numbers you guys pick will not hide useful gear.
Post by
109094
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
QuestionC
Moonkin stat weights have a wild swing based on gear and rotation.
Grayolo's numbers
are as good as any, and would probably ruffle the fewest feathers.
Hit 1.52
Spell Power 1
Haste 0.819
Crit 0.653
Int 0.33
Spirit 0.33
The math is from 6/5/2009, and assumes T7.25 gear with no tier bonuses.
Edit:
http://graymatterwow.blogspot.com/2009/05/moonkin-stats-and-my-new-model.html
goes into his model more.
Edit2: The reason I picked Grayolo's numbers is because they are pretty much in line with what
simulationcraft
says a poorly geared druid's scaling should be, but there is no web site I can source those numbers from. Simulationcraft's online samples operate using BiS assumptions, and are affected by a number of soft caps.
Post by
curlymon
For Balance Spec.
Spell Power: 2.46
Haste Rating: 1.75
Crit Rating: 1.58
Intellect: 0.91
Spirit: 0.74
These numbers, of course, assume one is hit capped. They are currently the numbers within the Druid FAQ and have been worked on by both me and Celd. These numbers themselves are for end game BiS listings based upon conclusions drawn from work with Rawr and Simulation Craft.
Hit and non hit sets should be a separate preset if possible. Using the above numbers and only adding in 4.39 for the hit value.
I would love to see the ability to add stat weights for sockets as well, and have the weights themselves get overwritten if someone chooses a specific gemming choice. For socket weighting I would place as follows.
Meta Socket: Chaotic Skyflare.
Red Socket: 46.74
Yellow Socket: 46.74
Blue Socket: 28.06
Chaotic Skyflare as it is the best choice for any Moomkin to do hands down but with your current systems you don't take into account the 3% increase to crit damage. This in fact comes to a 9% increase after talents. At 50% crit this is equivalent to a 4.5% increase in dps from that portion alone. Yellow sockets for end game are going to be filled with Runed Scarlet Ruby so that is why those numbers are as they are.
As previously stated this stat weighting is based on end game numbers to produce BiS listings. I feel this is the better method to use as this will have moomkins hitting end game or close to it with the right gear setup to limit what gear they will need to swap out as they get newer gear.
Edit: All numbers current to 3.1.3
Post by
109094
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
curlymon
For Balance Spec.
Spell Power: 2.46
Haste Rating: 1.75
Crit Rating: 1.58
Intellect: 0.91
Spirit: 0.74
Hit and non hit sets should be a separate preset if possible. Using the above numbers and only adding in 4.39 for the hit value.
I had taken that into account.
To take into account all levels you have to take into account the changes in spec and talents as you go along. Priorities swing wildly as you move up in level. Priorities swing wildly as you get different gear at 80 as well. But build towards BiS allows one to get the right gear when they get to raiding. If you want it all then Rawr is the better tool as it will show you what you want best as each piece of gear changes. But if you want a static number then end point is the most stable number to choose.
Post by
109094
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
thelaks
Feral DPS.
I'm not a theorycrafter, but have been using these from an MMO post - although figures come from elitistjerks.com...just not sure where. Pretty good kitty 3.1 guide too.
http://www.mmo-champion.com/index.php?topic=54761.0
Stat points Error dps value Error
Armor Pen 30.3 +/- 0.1 1.80 +/- 0.01
Agility 25.0 +/- 0.1 1.49 +/- 0.01
Feral AP 12.0 +/- 0.1 0.71 +/- 0.01
Strenght 23.8 +/- 0.1 1.41 +/- 0.01
Crit 20.0 +/- 0.1 1.19 +/- 0.01
Hit 22.8 +/- 0.1 1.35 +/- 0.01
Expertise 22.8 +/- 0.1 1.35 +/- 0.01
Haste 19.6 +/- 0.1 1.25 +/- 0.01
AP 10.0 +/- 0.1 0.59 +/- 0.01
Post by
QuestionC
For Balance Spec.
Spell Power: 2.46
Haste Rating: 1.75
Crit Rating: 1.58
Intellect: 0.91
Spirit: 0.74
Two things. First, I believe you did not account for kings in those numbers.
Second, the point of the wowhead item weights is really for new druids, and not meant to reflect high level gearing. If you get into high level gearing, there are too many variables, and I don't think 4 different flavors of "Balance Druid" on the premade weightings is worth the benefit.
Post by
Celdhyrean
Actually we should also have solar and lunar separated weights :p
I'm more on the side of Curlymoon for this argument : even if you are a new lvl 80 character, what you want to do is to build towards a BiS slot (wether you reach it or not is another problem). I don't see much point in having a "beginner" scale that gives item1 as 0.5% better than item2 which will make you strive for item1, and then having to change back from item1 to item2 once you get nearer to BiS because the scale is now different.
The people who care about a 0.5% improvement are the ones aiming for BiS anyway, and they might as well directly go for the item that they will be able keep.
For those who'll stay with lower level gear, i don't think there's much lost if the scale gives a result that is ~1% lower than the result from a "beginner" scale.
Post by
curlymon
I believe you did not account for kings in those numbers.
Second, the point of the wowhead item weights is really for new druids, and not meant to reflect high level gearing. If you get into high level gearing, there are too many variables, and I don't think 4 different flavors of "Balance Druid" on the premade weightings is worth the benefit.
King's is accounted for in those numbers. The numbers appear to be skewed until you add "rare" gems to the weighting since teh socket are not accounted for witht he current system. Celd made this very important observation in the Druid FAQ thread and the link in the FAQ was accordingly adjusted
And I do understand that a druid will want to use the stat weighting at a lower level. 90% of the people that are interested enough in how to play their class and as a result decide to converse on the forums are lvl 70+ druids. Since such a large portion seems to be such it would follow that posting a weight scale for that range of players would make sense. I could be completely wrong and I am aware that a large portion of the users do not chat on the forums and the only ones who can really say what slice of the wow druid population plays would be the ZAM guys. So I drew the conclusion that I was able to make.
This info has been in the Druid Balance section of the FAQ for a while now so I brought it up here. If you feel it needs to be changed I'm more then willing to open a disscussion of it though.
Edit: My weights are Lunar and Celd is very much correct in saying that Solar and Lunar should be separate. Kinda makes me sad since that would be 4 sets just for Balance if we did a hit and no-hit for each.
Post by
109094
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Celdhyrean
3.2 is going to solve the solar/lunar problem.
As for having 1 scale for beginners who aren't capped, that's fine with me, but i'd still propose numbers from at the very least T7 bis level. The precision should be good enough for a just dinged moonkin to take the right items (even if they are sub-optimal by 1-2% regarding his real stats, probably especially because of mana regen) and will be even better for higher level items.
0.01% error margin on dungeon items and 5% on Nax items just strikes me as wrong in terms of helping a new player to plan his progression.
Post by
curlymon
3.2 is going to solve the solar/lunar problem.
Yep this also mildly invalidates my current numbers. The rotation is going to change significantly as a result of changes. As a result we are going to have to find the middle ground on the stats. I won't do a new weight scale till after changes are released though since that is probably 2 months or so away and can easily be changed before release..
Edit: As I had missed Malygane's point saying it must be non capped numbers that would reduce it to 1 for each rotation type and from there to 1 with the proposed 3.2 changes.
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248155
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