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Body And Soul - PvE Usage
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Post by
Elrael
Yes you read that right. PvE Usage of
Body and Soul.
Because so many people think this talent is PvP and don't even consider it's use I will make this short guide to explain it's usage and function.
Warning: Body and Soul is a utility talent and needs a special kind of play style. It's not recommend for an average healer and you really need to revolve your whole play style around it. You won't higher in healing done but you can prevent a lot of damage taken by the raid and earn the love of your fellow raiders.
Warning: Using Body and Soul in it's full use can take time away from watching and healing the raid, keep this in mind. Slacking is a terrible healer sin, but with Body and Soul you need to double watch.
Also remember that all encounters are designed without Body and Soul in mind so it's never needed.
Body and Soul does two things. Cleanse poison on yourself and increase the speed on people with PWS by 60% for 4 seconds. (Thats normal mount speed)
The poison cleanse part is useless for PvE raiding but the speed increase is awesome.
The use of the the extra speed is for the fights where you need to run for nasty stuff or avoid a certain doom. One of the best and most common is the bomb debuff. A few of bosses place a debuff on you that after X seconds you explode hurting you and your raid.
With Body and Soul you can shield those people so they can move faster out the raid and also the shield absorbs a part of the damage making healing the person easier.
You can also shield the target with the bomb
after
the explosion so that he can run faster back and start dpsing earlier. Which results in a overall dps increase.
Before people did Ulduar everyone thought at the naxx fights and didn't saw a lot of PvE use for body and Soul. Now after the first few weeks more and more priest are (secretly) taking this talent for the awesome use In Ulduar.
Frequently Noted Concerns
Over the past few days a lot of people pointed out some of their opinions why this talent is bad. Most of them are valid points but it depend on your raid/experience/play style. I will list them with counter argument but in some cases this talent doesn't fit within your play style or your raid
I don't use Power Word: Shield as Holy Priest
Most people don't. Like I said this talent is a play style change and with that a play style choice. You can fit in one PWS and one PoH during a CoH cooldown for instance. It took me some time before I could do 4-5k HpS and give people enough shields to make a difference. You need to like this playstyle. You need to watch a bit more and it really means you are constantly standing on your toes trying to see everything. I guess a lot of people dislike working so hard for both great healing and brining utility.
Weakened Soul Debuff
Shielding suffers from a debuff that prevent shielding again on the same target for 15 seconds. It can happen that the same person could use a shield again within those 15 seconds. But a boss has like 15-25 people to give the debuff on so the chance that the same person get it twice is rare.
Also this means that with multiple priest Body and Soul quickly reduces in value. Especially with a Disc Priest that is raid shielding. You always need to talk with the Disc Priest(s) they still have the first right to shield. This talent doesn't work well with raid healing Disc Priest.
My DPS doesn't need speed to run.
But being faster can increase DPS. Less time spend running means more timing hitting the boss
In theory it seems the time spend walking becomes 60% less for 4 seconds. This means that a 4 second walk becomes 60% faster or takes 40% of the normal time.
40% of 4 seconds is 1.6 seconds. (and then we got another 2.4 seconds with the buff.)
If 1.6 seconds with buff equal 4 seconds without.
Then 4 seconds with the buff equals 10 seconds without.
So we end up with 6 seconds less running in a 10 second running moment. That is a lot but most fight you don't run 10 seconds, but more like 5 seconds. So we save 3 seconds.
A damage dealer does about 4-6k DPS. I earlier took 5k dps for an average. In those 3 seconds we get 15k extra damage. Which is not a lot and not so impressive. But you can shield more people. It depends a lot on the fight but at least 10 people should be durable.
Thats 10 times 15k extra damage or 150k extra damage.
Also the shield itself prevents damage, so the runner is safe form explosion from the debuff or aoe damage. So you will also still be healing and not just shielding people to run. Also the shield stays up for 18 seconds. In most boss fights AoE damage happens at least once every 10 seconds.
This talent is not worth taking over other talents.
Remember this talent only works for raid healers, a tank healer shouldn't be focusing on DPS to run and if you both tank and raid heal you don't got the time to watch people.
In my opinion
this
is one of the more heavy raid healer holy builds. (The only personal touch is between Spellwarding or Divine Fury.)
There are a few talents (besides Body and Soul) to put the last two points in (still avoiding greater heal talents)
Inspiration (1 point) But that also sucks for aoe healing
Empowered Healing (2 points)For Flash Heals and maybe the rare Binding Heal.
Blessed Resilience (2 point) For 2% healing on all spells
Some weird mix of those three talents
In a pure raid healing spec the last two points end up in one of the more low value talents.Yes there are more healer oriented options but if you can use the power of Body and Soul it's a great tool and don't lose that much healing power.
Ignayshus pointed out that 2 points in Blessed Resilience is worth 12,000 healing done. This is ofcourse gear and situtation depended but it's a trusty number (It's calculated with
rawr
).
My DPS stay longer on the boss because they think they get shielded
(or)
They run to far because they didn't expect to get shielded.
Are your DPS really that stupid? It takes some time before everyone knows they can get a speed buff but a DPS should be able to think for himself and judge situations and they don't got anything else to do then "think and look" when they run. If you DPS is really that depended/stupid then they just ruined this talent for you.
Post by
Elrael
List of Bosses
(and the usage of Body of Soul.)
Naxxramas
The Arachnid Quarter
Anub'Rekhan
- Minor benefit.
The melee dps needs to run out
Locust Swarm
and some starting guilds kite the boss during swarm. Also after kiting you can get healers faster to the tank.
Grand Widow Faerlina
- No benefit.
Maexxna
- Minor benefit
You can shield people that get
webbed
so they can dps earlier.
The Plague Quarter
Noth the Plaguebringer
- No benefit.
Heigan the Unclean
- Negative benefit.
Even with all the dancing to avoid the damage shielding people mostly result in them running to far and dieing, stupid dps.
Loatheb
- Minor Benefit.
You can shield dps going for a spore so they get the crit earlier and return in the fight earlier.
The Military Quarter
Instructor Razuvious
- No benefit.
Gothik the Harvester
- No benefit.
The Four Horsemen
- Minor benefit.
You can shield DPS going from one horseman to another so they can dps Earlier.
The Construct Quarter
Patchwerk
- No benefit.
Grobbulus - Major benefit.
This is probably the only boss in naxx where Body and Soul shines. You can shield people that get
Injected
so they can move faster out the raid and have a part of the damage absorbed.
Gluth
- No benefit.
Thaddius
- No benefit.
Frostwyrm Lair
Sapphiron
- Medium benefit.
You can shield people in p2 so they can get to ice blocks earlier and also the shield will absorbs some of the constant aoe damage.
Kel'Thuzad
- No benefit.
Vault of Archavon
Archavon the Stone Watcher
- No benefit.
Emalon the Storm Watcher
- Minor benefit.
Shielding (melee) dps that are going for the adds can help and shielding (melee) dps running away from nova's can help.
The Obsidian Sanctum
Twilight Drakes
Tenebron
- No benefit.
Shadron
- No benefit.
Vesperon
- No benefit.
Boss
Sartharion
- Minor benefit.
Shielding people during a lava wave can help and shielding tanks that are picking up adds can help.
The Eye of Eternity
Malygos
- Minor benefit.
Shielding people after a
vortex
can help those disorientated dps.
Shielding people in p2 can help them get faster by the bubble or disc.
Ulduar
The Siege of Ulduar
Flame Leviathan
- No benefit.
Ignis the Furnace Master
- Minor benefit.
Shielding the tanks that pick up adds can help, just look out if you got a Disc Priest.
Razorscale
- Medium benefit.
You can shield people getting hit by
Blue Fire
or tanks picking up adds.
XT-002 Deconstructor
- Major Benefit.
It's a bomb boss. With
Light Bombs
and
Gravity Bombs
. Focus on the light bombs. You can also shield add killers.
The Antechamber of Ulduar
Assembly of Iron
- Major benefit.
You can shield people to move out
overload
,
lighting clouds
or
death runes
and constant aoe damage makes the shield useful too.
This only works for kill order Steelbreaker -> Runemaster -> Stormcaller
Other kill orders also seem to have run moments
Kologarn
- Major benefit.
Laser beams
that you need to kite, a bit speed can help a lot with kiting. Also extreme handy (but not needed) for the Achievement: (
Heroic
)
If Looks Could Kill
Auriaya
- Minor benefit.
You can move people faster out
void zones
and safe some damage on them. You can also move faster after a
fear
.
The Keepers of Ulduar
Mimiron
- Minor benefit.
I love to use it on this boss in phase two when he does
some pew pew
. Then I'm earlier in a safe spot so I can spam some more healing, phase 2 is a heavy healing phase.
Hodir
- Medium benefit.
There are circles that people need to move to during
Flash Freeze
, sometimes a lost dps ends like 50 yards away from all circles, that happens almost every Flash Freeze. Also the shield mostly says up long enough to aborb some damage from
Frozen Blows
.
Thorim
- Medium benefit.
Altrough I'm tempted to call it minor a few shields help a lot with tanks picking up adds and dps avoiding
lighting orbs
in arena. Also in the tunnel on the second mini boss a few shields can help the group to spread out faster.
Freya
- Major benefit.
It's fun to shield casters so they can reach mushrooms faster, healers love the extra 3-4 seconds you can get with this. Also you can shield people with the debuff to let them move out the raid faster and absorbs damage.
The Descent into Madness
General Vezax
- Major benefit.
There is a lot of runnign in this fight. People need to avoid
shadow crashes
, then dps moves in
shadow crashes
for dps. There is a
debuff that deal damage to nearby allies
and the tank needs to deal with a
kite phase
. Also there is
green stuff
healers need to stnad in for mana regen, but it does deal damage and shield absorbs it.
Yogg-Saron
- No clue
I admit, I didn't do Yoggy yet :<. Tomorrow I will.
Celestial Planetarium
Algalon the Observer
- No clue.
Also never done this guy.
To sum up
Before Ulduar: One major boss (Grobbulus) and lot's of minor uses.
In Ulduar: 5 bosses with a major use, 3 bosses with medium use, 2 minor uses, 1 no use and 2 unknown (Yoggy/Algalon)
Conclusion: In Ulduar Body and Soul can be used a lot and help a lot. It's a fun utility talent and I (together with my raid) enjoy the speed and the shields. And even when you can say "people should run" running faster means they still can dps earlier, and the shield can still prevent damage taken.
But it's play style you either love or hate.
Also use it with care, PWS is expensive, Disc priest hate weakened souls on tanks and before you know it you forget to raid heal. This talent is not for everyone to use.
Consult a Doctor/Raid or Class Leader/Disc Priest before speccing into this.
Post by
karlusdavius
So what happens when a Disc priest shields that target first? Because, let's face it, his shields are way stronger than your's will ever be, and a speed boost is nothing to /cheer about. The encounters were designed to give a person enough time to move away ad back.
Before people did Ulduar everyone thought at the naxx fights and didn't saw a lot of PvE use for body and Soul. Now after the first few weeks more and more priest are (secretly) taking this talent for the awesome use In Ulduar.
Link
The poison cleanse part is useless for PvE raiding but the speed increase is awesome.
so three points to get half benefit of a talent.
Disc priest hate weakened souls on tanks
i don't know about anyone else however im regularly chain casting PW:S in times of heavy raid damage. Therefor there are a lot of WS debuff's around, again making those 3 points for half a talents buff, moot.
see where im going with this?
Post by
Elrael
So what happens when a Disc priest shields that target first? Because, let's face it, his shields are way stronger than your's will ever be, and a speed boost is nothing to /cheer about. The encounters were designed to give a person enough time to move away ad back.
Before people did Ulduar everyone thought at the naxx fights and didn't saw a lot of PvE use for body and Soul. Now after the first few weeks more and more priest are (secretly) taking this talent for the awesome use In Ulduar.
Link
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=body+and+soul+in+ulduar
The poison cleanse part is useless for PvE raiding but the speed increase is awesome.
so three points to get half benefit of a talent.
It's two points. And the poison cleanse is nothing worth in PvE and PvP compared the awesomeness of 60% speed on demand.
Let's say you was one third or one fourth of the talent. It's still a lot of buff for 2 points. In the "six optional points" of a holy spec this one can be a lot worth for 2 points. In terms of damage avoidance, dps and fun.
Yes fun, we are playing a game. Everyone likes to be speedy for 4 seconds, especially because it's rare the same DPS is getting it over and over again.
Disc priest hate weakened souls on tanks
i don't know about anyone else however im regularly chain casting PW:S in times of heavy raid damage. Therefor there are a lot of WS debuff's around, again making those 3 points for half a talents buff, moot.
see where im going with this?
No, all I see is someone with a closed mind not being able to fit entire new concept in his ways of thinking.
Yes it's harder to use with a Disc Priest, but wait, can't you talk? I as Disc Priest together with my Guildy, Holy in Body and Soul, always tell each other which targets to shield and not shield. He never touches the groups I'm watching or the main tank/offtank and I let him shield for the extra increase in utility.
It's not like I can keep up more then 18 shields at the time, and we are talking about 25 man raids here. In 10 man raids the chance you a have holy priest with Body and Soul and Disc priest are small.
I know who to watch and not shield when the Holy Priest want some Body and Soul awesomeness. And when we got enough paladins I be the Holy Priest with Body and Soul.
Also you can see Body and Soul as DPS. Yes. If a dps travels 8 seconds to avoid a nasty debuff Body and Soul reduced that with 3-4 seconds. Let's say that DPs does 5k DPS
It means that one Body and Soul just helped doing 15-20k damage.
Post by
karlusdavius
its not a new concept tho. its old. Its pretty obvious that my guild just doesn't need to be helping dps get back, hence why we don't use it. I just don't think its worth the talent points wasted for a speed buff and can be completely pushed off the table by a debuff that can be given to all priests.
Talking is fine, but there will come a point where your shield just doesnt cut it. The mitigation is offers is naff compared to a disc's. Id rather shield the target and know in my head than the shield will mitigate the majority of damage incoming, so no other healers have to expend mana healing him up because he got instaboosted right into the damage, when the shield absorbed nothing, making him hit low health after.
Its not worth the Talent points
Its not worth half the effect for 2 talent points.
Points can be better spent.
Its limited to a debuff that's 15 second long.
Its limited by a debuff that any priest can cast
Its taking away important proc's from a spec that gains more benefit from casting it (disc).
As for now putting in sarcasm with links etc. grow the &*!@ up. If you want a debate, you have one. its pathetic that you resort to childish remarks and ways to try and get your point, which is half hearted as it is, across.
Body and Soul is useful yes. But it takes away so much from the ideology behind the holy tree that the only way this would work is if every other healer knew you would be focusing on shielding targets who gain debuffs etc, pretty much taking away a fair few GCD's in the process, lowering overall healing in the raid, not the mention taking away a vital spec's tool for 15 seconds.
then again, its obvious that my guild has confidence in our dps to move when they need to and that they will make up dps lost and doesnt leave the responsibility up to our holy priests.
Post by
Elrael
its not a new concept tho. its old. Its pretty obvious that my guild just doesn't need to be helping dps get back, hence why we don't use it. I just don't think its worth the talent points wasted for a speed buff and can be completely pushed off the table by a debuff that can be given to all priests.
Talking is fine, but there will come a point where your shield just doesnt cut it. The mitigation is offers is naff compared to a disc's. Id rather shield the target and know in my head than the shield will mitigate the majority of damage incoming, so no other healers have to expend mana healing him up because he got instaboosted right into the damage, when the shield absorbed nothing, making him hit low health after.
It's depens also on how many priest in a raid you got. If you run with more then two Disc Priest your argument is a lot more logic, but you sound like a holy shield absorbs next to nothing. It's a big difference, but a Holy Priest PWS still is 2/3 as strong as a Disc Shield. It clearly doesn't fit in your style, and thats besides the main points.
As for now putting in sarcasm with links etc. grow the &*!@ up. If you want a debate, you have one. its pathetic that you resort to childish remarks and ways to try and get your point, which is half hearted as it is, across.
So I should be like you? Humorless, forcing opinions on people and keep repeating myself? I'm sarcastic, young and try in use at as a bit humor. Serious discussion about a game feel so forced. Of course we are aiming to get the max of our char to get the most of the game which results in more playtime/fun. But a joke here and a sarcastic moment because someone says something silly there is to enlighten, not to make you more grumpy.
I'm trying to get you out your shell, smile some more. The sun is shiny and I'm melting here.
We aren't perfect, we are perfect humans.
1 Its not worth the Talent points
Okay nice start. Why?
2 Its not worth half the effect for 2 talent points.
Repeating yourself?
3 Points can be better spent.
Isn't the most logic conclusion from 1 and 2?
4 Its limited to a debuff that's 15 second long.
Yes but how many of those situation will happen more then 3 times in 15 seconds on the same person?
5 Its limited by a debuff that any priest can cast
Isn't that a part of point 4?
6 Its taking away important proc's from a spec that gains more benefit from casting it (disc).
Thats what I already explained.
A) depends on the Disc Priest in the raid.
B) Holy Priest and Disc Priest should manage their shielding priorties togheter.
Body and Soul is useful yes. But it takes away so much from the ideology behind the holy tree that the only way this would work is if every other healer knew you would be focusing on shielding targets who gain debuffs etc, pretty much taking away a fair few GCD's in the process, lowering overall healing in the raid, not the mention taking away a vital spec's tool for 15 seconds.
then again, its obvious that my guild has confidence in our dps to move when they need to and that they will make up dps lost and doesnt leave the responsibility up to our holy priests.
Isn't that part of
A) Personal preference in play style
B) Depending on your raid situation
Also you don't need the DPS eh? So you can kill hard mode bosses already? Every DPS counts in progress.
I can easily assume I'm adding 100k damage to a boss fight with decent amount of running. And thats with only 5 people and 5k dps per person.
What if I help 10 people with their 8k dps, Then I had 4*8000*10 = 320k damage. Thats a lot of damage for relative low amount of time spend shielding.
Post by
karlusdavius
TBH, i give up. your childish. i have plenty of fun and cans mile and enjoy the game. i don't min/max anything. The points listed were all linked to each other. thanks for pointing that out.
your a
gimmic
Oh, and yes, we can kill hard modes.
Take care now, bye bye then!
Post by
razzem
Getting back to a more civil comparison of a Holy priest shield vs a Disc priests:
Disc: |
Holy:
Twin D. |
Twin D.
Imp PW:S |
Imp PW:S (not hard to get)
Focused Power |
Spiritual Guidance
Borrowed Time |
Spiritual Healing
|
Blessed Resilience
From the testing that I've done, With the Holy talents that I have listed, PW:S is only ~200 less absorbed dmg than my Disc Build. Granted, I don't think it's worth it unless you take Mental Agility and Soul Warding, but don't get so quick to say Disc is the only Shielder. Sure, in a 25 man raid I'm gonna let the Disc priest shield so he can have his Borrowed Time effect, but when you actually crunch the numbers, the gap isn't what you think it is.
Post by
Elrael
TBH, i give up. your childish. i have plenty of fun and cans mile and enjoy the game. i don't min/max anything. The points listed were all linked to each other. thanks for pointing that out.
your a
gimmic
Oh, and yes, we can kill hard modes.
Take care now, bye bye then!
You are the one insulting me with little reason, criticizing my entire post for one link and you can handle any word taken back? I won't call you next time my Body and Soul does a million extra damage.
Getting back to a more civil comparison of a Holy priest shield vs a Disc priests:
Disc: |
Holy:
Twin D. |
Twin D.
Imp PW:S |
Imp PW:S (not hard to get)
Focused Power |
Spiritual Guidance
Borrowed Time |
Spiritual Healing
|
Blessed Resilience
From the testing that I've done, With the Holy talents that I have listed, PW:S is only ~200 less absorbed dmg than my Disc Build. Granted, I don't think it's worth it unless you take Mental Agility and Soul Warding, but don't get so quick to say Disc is the only Shielder. Sure, in a 25 man raid I'm gonna let the Disc priest shield so he can have his Borrowed Time effect, but when you actually crunch the numbers, the gap isn't what you think it is.
Hmmm I wonder.
From a much
older post.
For Disc: total shield = * 1.15 * 1.09
At 1700 spellpower:
x = * 1.15 * 1.09
x = 5366,93546
At 2100 spellpower
x = * 1.15 * 1.09
x = 5972,02498
So let's do the the same for holy based on the
spec
I (should) use for Shielding.
Twin Disciplines -> 5% Healing
Spiritual Guidance -> 250 spellpower on both calculations
Spiritual Healing -> 10% Healing
For Holy: total shield = * 1.1 * 1.05
x = * 1.1 * 1.05
x = 4392.7653
x = * 1.1 * 1.05
4765.5069
As we can see Holy Shields scale a lot worse then Disc shields, making the difference bigger when you get more gear. But overall the differences are 1000 and 1200 aborbs.
I could do one with BR and Improved Shield, if someone can answer this: Is Blessed Resilience referring towards the overall healing done or the coefficient of the spell? Special kind of wording makes me confused.
Post by
karlusdavius
won't call you next time my Body and Soul does a million extra damage.
it wont
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Post by
Patty
On another note, its fairly disturbing to see the same crap one finds on the official forums and thottbot filling up the forums here.. Lets try to keep wowhead civil.
QFT.
I prefer wowhead for theorycrafting because it is less flamey and more friendly. Lets try and keep it that way...
*Giefs Chocolate* Enjoy :D
Post by
Kataly
I'm rather happy i'm the only active healing priest in my guild - just so i don't have to fret about other priests ruining my day with their weakened soul debuff.
Good, valid points. I honestly don't think it's worth picking up in a holy build, not to metion it can be quite suprising to DPS when they get launched forward a lot faster than they thought they would move which could possibly cause them to LOSE dps.
Post by
ignayshus
Good post.
As a holy priest that raids full time with a discipline priest, the coordination is very easy:
If there's a use for a shield on a tank, we discuss before hand who shields which tanks. I don't touch his shield targets, he doesn't touch mine.
If there's a use for a shield on raid members, we don't worry about it. If he shields them first okay, if I do alright... raid doesn't really matter, it's the coordination on tanks where stepping on each other's toes becomes important.
As to whether it's worth it or not, I can only speak for my raid, but they'd probably riot if I didnt have the talent as the add tanks are pretty spoiled now.
Post by
OscarDivine
okay guys, I've always felt that we as a class forum have always had a great way of making good arguments in a clean and civil way, but this thread makes me frown.
I'm not sure where all of this pent up angst has suddenly erupted from, but let's cool our jets please. I think Elrael makes a fine point about this talent, but I do not plan to use it myself.
Isn't that sufficient enough to say? Karl, if you don't agree, make a logical argument for your stance or leave well enough alone if you can't.
"Take care, bye bye then!" is significantly more childish than a logical argument, don't you think?
Post by
Hilnur
Gluth - No benefit.
As a priest and a hunter, I love body and soul on Gluth :)
Post by
Elrael
Gluth - No benefit.
As a priest and a hunter, I love body and soul on Gluth :)
Owh yeah some guilds actually kite those zombies.
Post by
awarewolf
So Elrael found a use for a "useless" talent that works for her and her guild, shared it, and then got attacked for that? Okay then.
I'm always looking to experiment with builds. I think I'll give this one a try and see how I like the effect.
Thanks El.
EDIT: Reminds me of the huge argument I had with another priest about the awesomeness of Mind Soothe. Apparently, even though I use this spell a LOT and its been a life/time saver, it's still utterly useless.
?
Keep on truckin.
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