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If one more person tells a paladin to respec..
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Post by
Avallen
Just something I've noticed recently. Here's a hypothetical.
What's the difference between telling a paladin to respec Holy instead of Protection or Retribution because "his DPS isn't good enough" and telling a hunter to respec Marksman instead of Survival because "his DPS isn't good enough"?
There isn't one.
The fact of the matter is, people, Retribution specced paladins are
not
useless by any means. The retribution paladin in a guild I raid with is in PvP/Kara gear (because, unfortunately, very little retribution gear exists) and consistently comes out between 10th and 8th in the DPS charts in a 25-man, 4th and 5th in a 10-man. Sure, he's not topping it, but consider everything he's bringing to the table:
An additional paladin buff.
Blessing of Wisdom + Blessing of Kings + Blessing of Might = happy hunters.
Wipe-recovery through Divine Intervention.
Saves repair bills, too.
Seals on the main-target.
Keep your caster's mana up, or your melee topped off.
Cleanses.
Healers too busy keeping up tanks to cleanse disease/poison? Get a paladin on it.
-15% attributes on main targets.
Makes those big hits a little bit easier to swallow.
+2% damage to those in his group.
Helps out the other DPS - that combined 8%-10% DPS could down a boss.
+3% crit on main targets.
Assuming they put points into Improved Seal of the Crusader.
And the list goes on.
The point I'm trying to make is that despite the fact that retribution paladins won't top the damage charts, the given utility they offer is more than enough to warrant a slot in raids. In that, they are similar to Survival-specced hunters
(I'm not saying that Survival hunters are crap DPS. Please, for the love of god, don't turn this into a debate about hunter specs.)
in that they sacrifice some DPS potential for further adaptability and CC. You wouldn't keep a Survival hunter out because they don't top the DPS charts -- you shouldn't keep a retribution paladin out of a raid because he doesn't top the DPS charts.
And besides, it's just rude. How would you like someone to tell you that your playing style sucks, that you should either respec Holy or reroll something useful, etc? Come on, have some common courtesy.
Discuss.
Post by
armandhammer
I never had a problem being told to respec but of course I was ret. only until lvl 40 then I respec'd to holy because I wanted to. However when I was ret. spec'd I was usually 2nd or 3rd on the damage meter plus all the benefits you already mentioned, so I felt that I indeed brought alot to the party. Perhaps I would have ran in to alot more discrimination if I had stayed ret. in to the higher lvls but at lvl 46 I still have not come across anyone dissing ret. pallys in the 45-50 range that I run with. Perhaps it is just a difference in servers or maybe I will start to see what you are talking about at lvl 60+.
Post by
Miyari
Very well thought-out and informative post, Avallen! :)
I wish more people out there could learn to accept and appreciate the "off" specs out there. As long as it's a solid spec backed by a skillful player, there are tons of possibilities in specs most players would generally disregard as a joke or impractical for raid environments. I like how you pointed out exactly what a retribution paladin can bring to a raid for the pallyblind out there who simply think ret = mediocre melee DPS. Wake up, guys. :)
Post by
Grados
An additional paladin buff.
Blessing of Wisdom + Blessing of Kings + Blessing of Might = happy hunters.
Wipe-recovery through Divine Intervention.
Saves repair bills, too.
Seals on the main-target.
Keep your caster's mana up, or your melee topped off.
Cleanses.
Healers too busy keeping up tanks to cleanse disease/poison? Get a paladin on it.
Unfortunately, the anti-ret community argues that a holy paladin can provide all of those as well and be more useful with heals, and that the last three points are "insignificant". Retridins can never win, I stopped trying to convince otherwise a long time ago...
Especially the seals. "OMG L2JUDGE BETWEEN HEALZ NUB HOLY PALAS!!!!!shift+1!". Yes, we're having to keep up the main tank often and asking us to waste time running close to the raid boss, sealing, judging, running back then starting casts again may just kill that tank all you DPS rely on.
For the record, I'm Holy, and will probably stay that way for the rest of my character life.
http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Azjol-Nerub&n=Theras
Post by
Avallen
Unfortunately, the anti-ret community argues that a holy paladin can provide all of those as well and be more useful with heals, and that the last three points are "insignificant". Retridins can never win, I stopped trying to convince otherwise a long time ago...
Especially the seals. "OMG L2JUDGE BETWEEN HEALZ NUB HOLY PALAS!!!!!shift+1!". Yes, we're having to keep up the main tank often and asking us to waste time running close to the raid boss, sealing, judging, running back then starting casts again may just kill that tank all you DPS rely on.
For the record, I'm Holy, and will probably stay that way for the rest of my character life.
http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Azjol-Nerub&n=Theras
This is an unfortunate situation that I see and it sucks that it probably won't change, no matter what I say - or anyone else says, for that matter. I specced Holy at 60 simply because I enjoy filling that role in a group. I wasn't pressured, I wasn't forced.
It's sad to see good players be pressured into respeccing Holy or lose raiding privileges simply because this usually leads to them quitting WoW, playing another character, or leaving guild.
And as for "OMG L2JUDGE BETWEEN HEALZ NUB HOLY PALAS!!!!!shift+1!".. yeah, go ahead, try that on Gruul (and any other fight involving AoE damage.. Prince, Curator, Maulgar, Mags, etc). Unless there's a
Retribution
Paladin refreshing SoL/SoW with Crusader Strike, it's virtually useless.
Very well thought-out and informative post, Avallen! :)
I wish more people out there could learn to accept and appreciate the "off" specs out there. As long as it's a solid spec backed by a skillful player, there are tons of possibilities in specs most players would generally disregard as a joke or impractical for raid environments. I like how you pointed out exactly what a retribution paladin can bring to a raid for the pallyblind out there who simply think ret = mediocre melee DPS. Wake up, guys. :)
Well, truth be told (and this is evident across
all
classes, not just Paladins) most people are unaware of all the things their class can do. Sometimes, it's even
skill
that'll make the difference between a mediocre player and a good player - it's just knowledge of one's class.
Like I said, nothing anyone can say will change the opinion of the masses, but I can still QQ.
Perhaps it is just a difference in servers or maybe I will start to see what you are talking about at lvl 60+.
Just wait till you hit 70 and try to find a raiding group as retribution. Unless some radical changes in thought occur between now and you hitting 70, you'll find it about as difficult as finding a raid as a rogue... on a PvP server..
And even then, rogues will have the edge on you simply because people see them as face-value DPS.
Post by
89659
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Post by
armandhammer
Perhaps it is just a difference in servers or maybe I will start to see what you are talking about at lvl 60+.
Just wait till you hit 70 and try to find a raiding group as retribution. Unless some radical changes in thought occur between now and you hitting 70, you'll find it about as difficult as finding a raid as a rogue... on a PvP server..
Just for the record, I am holy spec'd. It is just that I have not witnessed pally discrimination as far as ret. spec'd pallys not being welcomed in groups or being told to respec and actually they are usually gladly accepted in to groups I run with. But like I also said, I am lvl 46 so the other pallys I run with are usually 45-50 so perhaps the discrimination and hastling does not really start until lvl 60 or later. I did lvl from 10-40 ret. spec'd because it is recommended by most as being the fastest lvling spec then to respec at around 60. I did it at lvl 40 and am loving every second of being a healer.
Post by
69354
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Post by
Spartonian
Taking a Ret Paladin over another DPS class in Kara is a handicap since the benefits they provide to the raid in a 10-man are limited when compared to the damage another class could be inflicting on mobs/bosses. I imagine its the same in Zul'Aman.
Taking one to a 25-man is a good idea though since the buffs they provide go much farther.
Sorry, Paladins, but you've been pigeonholed by your ungodly single target healing capabilities.
Post by
shizreborn
I think a lot of it though is because people can always use more healers and tanks. A pally can fit both spots and that Is why I think they get asked so much to respec. All off specs can be good in a raid. I am a warrior and most of the time people want me to tank because they need a tank and not because I can't dps. I can do good dps, it is just not what the group is looking for.
A class that can reduce damage is always good to have around so the tanks don't get 1 shot.
Post by
67947
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Post by
DK10016
Very great post, Avallen. I am a level 66 retribution paladin. I find it hard to find groups most of the time because players are usually expecting paladins to either heal, or tank. Pretty much the only way I can get in a group, I have to be the leader and make the group myself.
It seems like no one really expects a retradan to do DPS when they actually can. Ive always been a retradan supporter and I will never stop.
However, I find myself switching to holy at level 70. Healing has been something I've always loved to do in WoW, and Im good at it. I figured that I might as well switch holy. Holy paladins have a much bigger chance in getting in raids and other groups, and since I like healing it doesnt really matter.
The only thing that sucks about going holy spec for me is that I really wanted to PVP and do some kick ass DPS. I guess I'll be healing in raids/pvp instead =/
Anyway. I'll always love retradins =]
It's going to bring a tear down to my eye when I spec holy at 70
*sniffles* =/
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103137
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102166
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Post by
ablaze
i'm prot/etri no one has ever dared to say to me to respec.
i'm usually the main tank on raids or dps while dual boxing my shaman for heals.
and i always got a full heal set with me in bags if i should ever need it.
and outfitter makes it for a quick change of armor.
honestly i get way more invites then i would like. it gets annoying.
I'm a prouf guild master to so that means everyone want's my help to train em on pvp or save from allys.
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90752
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48241
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103202
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Post by
blademeld
a good Ret Pally can easily put out 800 to 900 DPS in T5 gear.
you're really, really, underrating a ret paladin
i've seen T4 paladins do 1k DPS...
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