Topic of the Week 6/16 - The Future of PVE

Post by Arideni

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Welcome to the official Wowhead "Topic of the Week," hosted by yours truly. This week we're going to take a quick glimpse at how PVE progression has progressed from the original game & what's in store for us in the expansion.

When World of Warcraft was first released the focal point for most players was the 5-man content while leveling. After reaching level 60, players were in all greens & steadily grinding for gold or items. Some of the best items in the game were epic world drops (for example, Glowing Brightwood Staff). Later came Dire Maul, which introduced better itemization.

At high level, there were 10- & 15-player raid dungeons (for example, Blackrock Depths, Scholomance, Stratholme, and even Blackrock Spire). Over time, many of those dungeons were reduced to 10- or 5-player dungeons, then reduced again (or nerfed entirely) when The Burning Crusade was released. The main reason was to help prolong the longevity of the content. In most cases, it worked well.

The previous raid format consisted of 40 players. Molten Core & Onyxia's Lair were the first large-format raid dungeons, with Blackwing Lair being introduced in patch 1.6. Blackwing Lair was a huge success & a milestone in raid progression. This revolution was seen again when Ahn'Qiraj & Naxxramas were released.

However, only a small handful of players ever stepped foot into Naxxramas. The dungeon was by all accounts the most difficult, and beloved, dungeon ever introduced, but most guilds were still struggling with Blackwing Lair & the newly introduced 20-player raid format for Zul'Gurub & the lesser Ahn'Qiraj dungeon. Even today, most players have never ventured into Naxxramas.

But all that is about to change. With the advent of the second expansion, Wrath of the Lich King, the entire game is about to "shift" again. The 25- & 10-player raid formats introduced in TBC are coming back with a twist. Blizzard has stated that all new large format raid dungeons will now co-exist with a 10-player version, using a separate itemization. Furthermore, all "progression" lanes have been revamped -- no longer will a guild be locked out of a particular raid simply because they are unable to progress through several other raid dungeons first. In fact, the new "entry-level" raid? It's going to be Naxxramas, revitalized, revamped, & fully capable of kicking our, well, you know.

Some things to think about this week:

How important is PVE progression to you? How important is it to the game?
What do you think about these new raid formats, or the 10/25 player format in general?
Will the new raid formats, with two versions of each dungeon, really help (if done properly)?
Are you excited about the new PVE content, including Heroics & more options for smaller guilds? What will happen to the larger guilds?
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Post by Celdhyrean

PvE progression is important to me as raiding encounters are the main drive i have for playing WoW. Playing in group with organized and like-minded peoples and progressing through new lore/fights/instances is what keeps me in WoW.
I rarely PvP (3 year old druid who did 60k honor in his life and 2 year old warlock with 4k honor) as queues and stupidity levels are mostly too high for me to really appreciate them.

However, I'm not in a hardcore raiding guild, we progress slowly and have our share of "slow" players who are unable to react appropriately to fights. It's sometimes frustrating, but the good ambiance in the guild makes me feel at home.
Basically, i play the game to do progress in PvE but with people i appreciate, not to the point of switching guilds to a more efficient one.

The new 10/25 raid formats were really helpfull to organize raids compared to the old 40 man one. Not only because it's easier to have enough people online, but also because there's less room for personnal error which forces people to step up a bit in their gameplay.
I haven't thought much about the new wotlk "same instance for 10 or 25 man". It'll be a godsend for small guild, i don't know how it will work out for mine : we do mostly 25 man raids, but some might prefer the "facility" of a 10 man raid and leave the 25-mans on the side (either because they are less good than the others, or because they are better and don't wish to be held back by 15 others).
No point in wasting much thought on that since the respective difficulties and loot levels are completely unknown at the moment.

I'm excited about seeing new stuff, and that's probably true for everybody. Routine is my worst ennemy in MMORPGs. As i said previously, some consequences of the upcoming changes for guilds can be imagined, but i feel there's no real point in losing much thought over them now.
All raids format will persist (25 man for hardcore guilds, 10 man for others), the main problem will be for those guilds in the middle who will have to make a choice. And to do that choice (i think my guild will be in that case) we will need more information.

Post by Feanora

I only play WoW for the endgame raiding factor; that is, I only PvP when I have to, given that certain PvP items are better than all but one or two items attainable in PvE. Like many others who play for the same reasons I do, I don't like what Blizzard has done with "welfare epics", especially making the aforementioned easily obtainable PvP gear items better than most in-slot raiding items. I don't know that it's per se ruining the game, as some will charge, but I certainly do miss the pre-TBC days when having a full set of epic gear was a badge of honor, and there was a certain panache to having accomplished what very few others could. These days, there's a clear divide in the game, where to a large extent the hardcore PvPers scoff at the T6 Sunwell "carebears", and the latter scoff at the welfare epic'd noobs who are too bad to raid. What's the solution? I don't know. But I would certainly hope that in the future, weapons from the next to last boss in the game (M'uru) are considerably better than the considerably more obtainable PvP weapons (Brutal gear).

As for what WotLK will bring, I have no problem with the twin-sized dungeons, as long as there is a clear divide between 10-man gear and 25-man gear. Am I an elitist? Possibly. But the dedication required to run successful 25-man content is and should be higher, and thus the rewards should reflect that. I don't see any end in sight to the PvP vs. PvE divide, unfortunately, but them's the breaks. We'll see what continues to pass as more work is done on the expansion, and maybe in a few month's time we'll be able to pass more suitable judgement.

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Post by Arideni

I look forward to the concept of parallel raid formats which do not inhibit progression. Progression being done away with may just be the next progressive step in PVE. As someone mentioned, there are a lot of unknown variables still at play, but one can't help to wonder what exactly is in store for us with these new concepts.

Blizzard certainly does have a lot on their plate when considering the delicate balance between not only PVP & PVE, but PVE itself ("casual vs. hardcore").

In the end, I think things will work out for the better. A bumpy road ahead, possibly, but have we not endured the utter wails & whines which have, seemingly, always preceeded change? Wrath of the Lich King will be a great expansion — it has to be. There's a lot riding on it, =)

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Post by MrFredII

* How important is PVE progression to you? How important is it to the game?
I play this game to enjoy raiding with ingame and RL friends. So for me a quality raiding environment, which is available to a 30 hour a week player, is of paramount importance. If by progression you mean gaining gear from one challenge to prepare a group for the next, its hard to see how else to structure it. So I think its critical to the game. I don't think that attunements or enforcing a rigid progression of raiding instances is necessary and generally brings with it more problems than it purports to solve. If we are honest long quest chains to gain entrance to new end game content is more about Blizzard controlling the rate at which content is available to players than establishing some qualification of player ability.

* What do you think about these new raid formats, or the 10/25 player format in general?

More important than the size of the raid is the degree to which it restricts flexibility and gear requirements of the group. A loosely structured 25 man raid is more easily filled than a 10 man that requires a precise mix of classes and specific gear and talents. I suspect that one consequence of the 10/25 format will be that when 18 people show up for a 25 man, 8 will be left behind and the others will do the 10.

* Will the new raid formats, with two versions of each dungeon, really help (if done properly)?
See above.
* Are you excited about the new PVE content, including Heroics & more options for smaller guilds?
Sure if it works but remember that pre-BC Kara and the heroics were supposed to do just that. Clearly if that really was Blizzard's intent they blew it very badly.

* What will happen to the larger guilds?
The very hardcore guilds will roll through the new content as they always have. The rest may be faced with a situation where, depending on the rewards, the impetus to do the 25 mans isn't sufficient to induce people to run them. Most guilds have a central core of raiders around which the lesser hardcore form to do the larger raids. If the 10 man content and rewards are good enough many of the members of this central group may simply decide to abandon their guilds and reform around a very small number of core raiders. This is one of the factors that destroyed so many of the raiding guilds when BC arrived. They had the wrong mix of players to create 4 successful10 man raids out of the 40 man raid groups they were set up to support.

I would like to be optimistic, but Blizzards continual dilution of raid gear compared to PvP, the way that BC shattered many guilds, and their very clear preference to put obstacles to content in preference to creating more content prevents it.

Post by Arideni

Those are indeed some excellent points, MrFredll.

Post by Maradin

I'm slightly sceptical... to me, the real challenge of 25 man instances was the fact that you had to organise and manage a large group of people. This differs from 40 man instances (where you'd need to manage a bigger group) because the 25 man instances are in general more individually demanding. This means you have to try to get the same group of people each time, and you're looking for a raiding team of 35-40 people.

To me, running such a group is the challenge of pve. There's nothing that difficult about what you have to actually do in each fight, but recruiting people, scheduling raids, and organising tactics... more of a challenge.

Ten man raids don't really have this so much. I support them entirely as opening raids, because I think that anyone starting the end-game PVE content needs to experience the slightly larger instance group to prepare them for 25 man raids. But once you've done SSC/TK, instances like ZA become really simple. And they SHOULDN'T be - I'd say Malacrass is as individually demanding as any fight in SSC/TK. However, you rely on 9 other players, not 24.

So, to answer the questions:

How important is PVE progression to you? How important is it to the game?

I think it's fairly important, to give some challenge to the game. If I can immediately hop into the top instance with a few welfare epics, it doesn't feel like I've achieved much. However, if I have to clear Karazhan and kill Gruul just to get into SSC.... then clear it to get into Hyjal... it feels truly epic, and I've really developed my character. On my server, Kael'thas hasn't been killed by a new guild since the attunements were removed, and that seems a shame.

That said, the attunements do slow guilds down. I'd suggest some sort of system where players can skip attunement quests but only if their guild earns some sort of token for them. This would have to be limited, I guess.

I also strongly support the badge system for loot, in a way. I don't like the idea that a guild needs to farm an instance for weeks before moving to the next stage - they've completed the instance, but can't easily move on for lack of gear. I therefore suggest a multiple tier badge system - so in BC, for example, you'd earn one type of badge for tier 4 level instances, 1 type for tier 5 and 1 type for tier 6. These would then be traded in for equivalent level items. This means that if you spend a few weeks in a level of instance, you're going to have the gear to be able to complete your loot at that level (by filling in the gaps through badges).

I don't support the idea of allowing people to run Karazhan in order to get tier 6 level gear. This DOES make the game more accessible, and I see the point, but it's back to satisfaction in the game... I think if I hit 70 now, I'd be disappointed that the "only" content I'd do would be Karazhan farming and then tier 6 instances.

* What do you think about these new raid formats, or the 10/25 player format in general?

I'd propose an "in between" system. So, here's my suggested raid structure.

-> 5 man instances - include some sort of dungeon set, similar to BC system.

-> opening ten man raid. Early bosses drop blues with a small chance of an additional higher level epic (I'm thinking the difference between ilevel 105 and 115 here), and later bosses drop epics including the first tier set tokens, perhaps head and gloves to continue a trend. Later bosses also drop the "tier 7" badges.

-> opening 25 man raid (the same place as the 10 man raid!). Early bosses drop the higher level epics mentioned earlier routinely, and later bosses drop slightly higher level items (the difference between 115 and 125) including the rest of "tier 7". Early bosses drop one badge, later bosses drop two badges. Other two parts of "tier 7" drop from early bosses too!

-> Progression 10 man raid. This should be accessible by those who haven't done the 25 man version of the "opener". The bosses should drop slightly higher level epic items, but the instance requires a high level of individual skill to complete (but NOT high gear). This should be the equivalent of ilevel 128-133, going by our earlier measure, and doesn't include any tiered gear.

-> Progression 25 man raid. This should require an attunement completed in the opening 25 man and progression 10 man raid. Bosses drop the equivalent of ilevel 141 gear, plus the full tier 8 tokens.

-> High-end ten man raid. This should require the same attunement as the progression 25 main raid. Bosses drop the equivalent of ilevel 141 gear, but no tier tokens. THis should have a timed reward for gear that is higher than ilevel 141, but that is very difficult to achieve except for people with very good gear already.

-> High-end 25 man raid. Same area but different wing to the 10 man raid, and continues the quest line started in the ten man. Requires an attunement done in the progression 25 man, and is designed for hardcore raiders. Drops the highest end gear, plus early parts of a tier 9 set that won't be finished until a later patch.

I think these can be balanced well to allow progress for casual players. There will be two ten man raids and one 25 man raid accesible to them, so that casual guilds will be able to progress... and individuals can get geared for the higher raids without needing to farm gear (only show some skill).

* Are you excited about the new PVE content, including Heroics & more options for smaller guilds?

I think Blizzard neglects hardcore raiders at its peril. However, I do think it's a great idea to expand the game to slightly more casual players. I think that with a system similar to that proposed above, both parties will be happy. If we allow for more boe crafted gear too, gear will be accessible through a number of routes. I do, however, suggest that it would be sensible to allow pvp gear to be obtained through badges... and to the same level as that obtained through pvp. Equally, some of the lower end pve gear could eventually be placed onto honour, to allow people to experience all the content.

What will happen to the larger guilds?

Hardcore guilds will always be going for the highest rewards, which means the 25 man raids. If raids are also set up for ten man as well, guilds will simply form two ten man teams and blast through the ten mans as quickly as possible to get to the higher rewards. This certainly happened in Karazhan, with many guilds getting onto Gruul before Karazhan was even farmable. I don't think it will impact larger guilds much at all, unless the ten man raids are so good that 25 man raids become more trouble than they're worth.

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Post by Sakkura

PvE progression is the main thing that keeps me playing the game.
The 10-man raid format was always a decent middle of the road between 5-mans and "real" raids. 25-man raids are different from 40-mans. Some good differences, some bad. The 40-man raids were more social, but in the end that huge number of players meant you were practically guaranteed to have someone AFK or disconnected or whatever every time you were about to pull. 25-mans just work better in this respect.
The new raid formats could work very well, but depends a lot on how they do it.
Heroics don't hurt raid guilds. The only thing that has hurt them is the exodus of players to PvP due to much easier access to epics (good epics to boot) from PvP. Better balanced heroic drops will be a boon to everyone.

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Post by Azrile

WotLK is probably the 'end' system they will use for pve. It really caters to everyone

Casuals will have 5mans to 5 man heroics
Small guilds will have 10 mans
Large guilds will still have their 25 mans with the best gear.

I think Blizzard has now completely removed anything that casuals can complain about, since they no longer will say they can't see content (10 mans have the same bosses as 25 mans). I think BC added a ton of options for casual and solo players at endgame (compared to vanilla). I think WotLK will do even more to make even the most solo player feel like they aren't 'finished'... there will simply be very fun ways to advance your character without changing your playstyle drastically. (no more raidorquit)

PvP is a different story.. I don't think a majority of the players are happy with the current endgame pvp system where you have to do Arenas to get the best rewards. I think this will be tweaked pretty significantly when S5 starts.

Topic of the Week 6/16 - The Future of PVE

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