Topic of the Week 4/21 - Mitigation vs. Avoidance (Tanking)

Post by Arideni

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Welcome to the first installment of the "Topic of the Week," mediated by yours truly. Before we begin, I would like to take this time to thank Aris, whose comments spawned this concept. I would also like to thank Wanderlei for invaluable insight & inspiration on this week's discussion matter.

This week, our topic is one of hot debate: mitigation versus avoidance. But, with all the hooplah & hubbub floating around, how can one effectively understand the differences? Which one is better? Why?

Here are a few ideas to consider before writing:

If avoidance means not getting hit, isn't that better?
But one will always be hit, one way or another, so high mitigation is better.
Avoidance wastes mana! Each time the tank dodges or parries, the tank wastes a heal.
If a healer can chain-cast heals which are 1.5-3.0 seconds or longer, why can't they cancel the heal?

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Approach this topic as if you're trying to persuade the entire warrior community to pick one or the other, or both (hint, hint). I'll weigh in with my thoughts on the matter from time to time, but let's keep it clean. Now, go!

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Post by MasterM

Very interesting idea and I'm certainly looking forward to it :)

As for the debate on Mitigation vs Avoidance...
I'm an avoidance tank myself and have tanked up 'till Karazhan(at which point my guild leader decided to Hara-Kiri the guild).
* If avoidance means not getting hit, isn't that better?
- Yes, and no. Not being hit equals no damage, which is a good thing, but it also means no rage, which pretty much sucks...even more when your DPS is going berserk on a mob.
* But one will always be hit, one way or another, so high mitigation is better.
- Agreed, mostly, but with the %'s an avoidance tank has, it's nearly always a dodge, block or parry. We can take two 8k hits...really.
* Avoidance wastes mana! Each time the tank dodges or parries, the tank wastes a heal.
- Completely dependant on your healer. Some will just chainheal 'till they're OoM, some will actually pay attention to what's happening to the tank, rather then what might be happening to it's health.
* If a healer can chain-cast heals which are 1.5-3.0 seconds or longer, why can't they cancel the heal?
- Irrelevant to avoidance tanking in my opinion. But yes, it's usually recommended to warn your healer that you're an avoidance tank.

Now for some personal additions:
I have a mere three gear sets: Stamina, Avoidance and Threat.
I usually take Threat for trash and Stamina for bosses that hit hard, but slow. As opposed to taking Avoidance for fights like Malchezaar.
I'm really liking the rage generation that Expertise/Hit gives, maybe you should include it in some debate as well?

Concluding: Stamina and Avoidance are two disciplines inside the tanking world. Whichever works the best doesn't matter, as long as it works.

Also, +1 for an awesome initiative :D

Post by Malekith

Great idea for a topic, I've been wondering about this for a long time.
One thing I've found though, having raided as both a tank and as a healer, is that avoidance tanks can be unpredictable. If you rely too much on avoidance, you'll unexpectedly take a lot of damage at some point, and if you don't have the HP to fall back on, you may find yourself eating dirt (or purple energy-type floor stuff, depending on where you are!).

However, if you are a mitigation tank, your healers will know how much damage you take, and even with a lot of stamina gear, your avoidance doesn't become nothing instantly, you'll still dodge/parry/block a fair amount, saving a bit of mana when needed.

Thats just my experience, I'd like to know what others think.

Post by Arideni

While avoidance is often unpredictable, it holds true whether one stacks additional avoidance or not -- it is there.

I appreciate the compliments & hope to turn this into a tradition. However, I'm going off topic. Allow me to continue the mediation, =P

Many of you are coming out in force for avoidance, suggesting that it does indeed help & there are little considerations for healers, other than to ensure they are vigilant.

But when stacking avoidance, does one not often have low stamina?

With the addition of Zul'aman, many tanks were finding themselves low on defense rating, but having a blast gearing for threat.

How is the step up from Karazhan to Zul'aman, and from Zul'aman to Serpentshrine Cavern or Tempest Keep different in relation to gearing?

Many argue that bosses who dual wield have a higher chance to miss, and they do, but does that mean we should forego mitigation full force in favor of avoidance? I believe a compromise is necessary for great performances which rely on avoidance.

Please, continue the discussion!

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Post by Malekith

"losing aggro since '05"
That'd be me ;)

And also, I see your point about mitigation being superior. I have also healed in raid instances, and most of the time I am just spamming flash of light (holy paladin). I generally have the mana to keep going with this routine for most fights, and only diverge when the tank drops lower than 45% - our healers and I sort out things like this. This is because most of our tanks are mitigation tanks - we expect the tank to take damage, thus when he dodges, parries or blocks, we are only wasting a couple of flash of lights.

Anyway, back to the point. I have different sets for different purposes (including one to look good in - can't stand looking like a clown). I must say that I tend to use my mitigation set a lot more than my avoidance set. Having a mitigation tank gives your healers a clear idea of how much they need to heal, and how to plan their healing out, as apposed to every healer throwing in a massive heal when the tank takes a big chunk of damage.

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Post by Arideni

Great replies thus far. I'm interested in seeing some more names in this thread (hint, hint).

Let's shake things up a bit.
. . .an avoidance tank can aid greatly in a healers mana conservation/mana regen
While this can be true, it is mostly a misconception. Generally speaking, in most situations -- not all -- there is a higher chance of an avoidance tank surviving than a mitigation tank. This is due to how avoidance scales in comparison to health. Allow me to explain.

Stamina provides a static gain in health which actually becomes irrelevant as incoming damage increases. Let's do an example.

Our sample tank, "Beefus," has 45% combined avoidance & 28,000 effective health. Our sample boss hits for 5,000 damage.
28000/5000=5.6
Beefus can only withstand 5 direct blows before collapsing. On the next swing, he will be flattened like a pancake. In order to survive that next swing, he needs an additional 2,000 effective health!
Note: With each swing at 2 seconds, our tank only has 12 seconds to live.

The problem I originally made, and that many make, is in calculating the chance to avoid, rather than the chance to be hit. So, our chance to be hit is actually 55%. The chance for Sample Boss to hit Beefus 6 times in a row...
0.55^6=0.27...
or ~2.7%. According to Murphy's Law, this can & will happen.
Note: Our tank's time to live has increased by 4 seconds, a total of 16 seconds.

What happens when we stack more avoidance? Well, let's say Beefus is now at 60% avoidance or 40% chance to be hit...
0.40^6=0.004...
or 0.4% chance to be hit six times in a row. That's an increase in time to live by 6 seconds, for a total of 18 seconds.

Disclaimer: I did not verify nor check this math, to be honest. For anyone who wishes to do so, feel free. The conclusion is the same regardless.

Conclusions?

In simple terms, that extra 400 health on your pants, or whatever, isn't really going to save you against the 6th swing (5000 damage for our scenario). In fact, an even simpler explanation would be 10,001 HP. Three hits you're dead. With avoidance factored in, the time to live may potentially be extended. It doesn't matter if you add 100 health or 1,000, that third hit is going to kill you if it lands.

But, if you had at least 5% avoidance (the creatures miss chance for example), then there's a flat 5% on every single attack that you won't die flat on your butt. Compelling argument?

Post by Aris

95% of raiding content : Mitigation wins
5%: Avoidance wins.

There are some high profile fights that avoidance tanks always point to when trying to convince people they need to stack avoidance. Shaman on the FLK fight, Archimonde, Prince. Theirs probably one or two in BT and Sunwell also, but you get the idea. For the most part the incomming damage and speed of that damage isnt high enough to warrent the need for an avoidance set. But there are notable fights like the ones listed where an avoidance tank will win hands down. But for the other 95% of raiding content, a mitigation tank will win out.

Mitigation tanks also generate more threat, due to having more rage on hand from getting hit more often. The second you fail to hold aggro, you fail to be a tank. Threat generation is the #1 stat for a tank, period.

So while it is important to have an avoidance set, i believe it should be sitting right next to your frost resistance set, nature resistance set, and shadow resistance set. A set of armor you need on specific boss fights, but for general use is useless.

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Post by Malekith

Interesting to see other peoples' opinions. It does seem as though an extra 1000 HP will not do much to save a tank's life (with the exception of some situations, depending on how hard the mob hits). In this sense I would be compelled to lean more towards the avoidance side of things, as an extra couple of % to avoid comes in handy throughout the fight, unlike the extra HP, which is only something to fall back on.

This leads me to another point. Lets say our tank has 20,000 HP unbuffed.
From looking at different bits and bobs, and comparing item level, 1000 HP/100 stamina seems to be on par with about 2-3% extra chance to dodge/parry/block. How often, in reality, are you going to drop down below your last 1000-2000 HP? Not often, is the answer, if your healers are sharp. True, it can save your life if you drop that low, but so can those extra couple of % avoidance. My point is, that the 2-3% extra chance to D/P/B becomes useful throughout the fight, instead of just when you drop into dangerous levels, like HP does.

One of the main problems with avoidance, though, is that it is unreliable. HP is always there, and you do not have to rely upon luck or probability to save your neck. Some fights, you can be so happy with your avoidance that you would happily make sweet, sweet love to it. Though, in other fights, you curse yourself for stacking it, and instead, you beat your own head in and leave the cucumber in the salad for another day.

Any other thoughts?

PS: Sorry about the sexual references in that last paragraph.

Post by nismotune

coming from a raid healer's PoV Mitigation/stam is king during progression.

If the tank is stacking avoidance and gets an unlucky string of hits he will drop without the healers being able to get off a single heals.

If the tank is stacking mitigation and is getting hit constantly but for alot less the healers are able to cope with it much easier.

this doesn't come into play much in your standard tank and spank but in situations where there is environmental dmg or some other reason the healer may need to "run-n-gun" then they won't have the ability to react to the spike dmg.

if a mitigation tank dies to the slow grinding death it is generally a slacking on the healer's gear, whereas if a tank get's spiked the healer's gear would make little to no difference.

as is said before most tank healer's are queuing large heals and stopping them at the last second (execption: pally/druid)

while this may seem to work well with an avoidance tank it in fact is much more difficult as the damage taken is unpredictable. a mitigation tank will be easier to predict when he is going to take dmg and exactly how much dmg he will take.

Avoidance tanks take less mana to heal (in theory) but mitigation tanks are much easier to heal (based on healer's gear instead of RNG)

I'm new to tanking but i've been raid healing since long before horde had paladins spam healing tanks (it may have been a pain but i miss the hell out of my resto shammy)

i prefer a steady stream of dmg. I'd like to hear more discussion on this issue. it's nice to see people debate this in a more civilized manner than most other forums.

edit:
Wall of txt misses "avoidance tank"
"healer" heals you for 0(10,000) critical
wall of txt hits "avoidance tank" for 12,395 info damage
"healer" heals you for 6,423
wall of txt hits "avoidance tank" for 13,632 info damage
"avoidance tank dies"

wall of txt hits "mitigation tank" for 7,839 info damage
"healer" heals you for 6,465
wall of txt hits "mitigation tank" for 6,912 info damage
"healer" heals you for 5,281
wall of txt hits "mitigation tank" for 6,812 info damage
"healer" heals you for 10,254 (185) critical
wall of txt dies

Post by Aris

coming from a raid healer's PoV Mitigation/stam is king during progression.

i prefer a steady stream of dmg. I'd like to hear more discussion on this issue. it's nice to see people debate this in a more civilized manner than most other forums.

I agree. I also raid heal for T5/6 content. Mitigation tanks are much easier to heal and keep alive. Plus mitigation tanks have higher TPS, which im sure DPS class's prefer.

Post by nismotune

totally, avoidance = 0 rage = 0 threat

Post by Arideni

Dual wielding bosses throw a wrench in the gears by expending our SB charges withing 5 seconds, which will allow them to crush us, avoidance sets can be a good counter to this.
Parry then dodge take priority over blocking, so an avoid tank can keep their SB up longer (maybe keep it up) on a fast hitting boss.
I am glad someone finally brought this up, =p
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It seems the discussion has once again shifted towards one side versus the other.

Avoidance has a chance of working, but so, too, does stamina. That's right, I said it: risk is not diminished by gearing for effective health or stamina.

From earlier, we concluded that in many situations an amount of stamina may not always save a tank. Our tank had 28,000 Effective Health. What happens when our tank takes totally random damage instead of just 5,000? It reduces his "guaranteed" chance to survive the next to last blow.

Adding stamina just increases the odds, which are based on the damage range & swings of a boss. It's just as much left up to chance as avoidance. This is a fact which doesn't require math to prove. The problem is, which situation requires which set of gear? Early on, in most cases mitigation is the better choice. As one advances beyond TK it becomes prevalent that quite a few more situations are better with avoidance sets, whether in part or in whole. This change is also reflected in the itemization at that level.

Finally, here is a summation of my recent thoughts:

Stamina provides a static gain in health which actually becomes irrelevant as incoming damage increases.
With avoidance factored in , the time to live may potentially be extended.

I also asked about this: "How is the step up from Karazhan to Zul'aman, and from Zul'aman to Serpentshrine Cavern or Tempest Keep different in relation to gearing?"

So, in addition to that, how is the gear change from SSC/TK into Black Temple? And what do you predict based upon the itemization of gear from BT & above?

Topic of the Week 4/21 - Mitigation vs. Avoidance (Tanking)

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