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Real Life Orcs Vs Humans.
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Post by
107485
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Post by
Queggy
Wouldn't Orc Warlocks be immune to most diseases?
Post by
109094
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Post by
107485
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Post by
166613
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Post by
Adamsm
Here's a good question: are we talking now a day humans, as in the year 2009, or are we talking dark age humans? Cause if it's the Dark Age, I'd give the edge to the Orc's, between their pure numbers and strenght, not to mention our own belief systems back then, the Orc's would win from pure fear. Yes people would fight, but there would also be as many running terror as "demons" attack them.
Post by
425680
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Post by
283679
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Post by
Adamsm
The 300 is loosely based on an actual event, dont use that as historical accuracy really. And Im talking middle ages, as in 1300's, time of Arthur, Camelot and the Crusades. That's the only one that really sync's up after all.
Post by
Thundurmaul
They were effective how ever in that they made a very loud noise, and any one that has never come in encounter with such technology would surely be scared/confused by the noise alone.
Startled, maybe. I don't recall EVER seeing orcs scared. This is a race that finds death in bloody battle to be the greatest way to die, they really aren't afraid of anything. Confused, perhaps, but the humans would be confused by the lizard men that suddenly poured out of no where and started slaughtering them.
While Orcs on the other hand appear to be more of a hunter-gatherer society, and as such they would not have had encountered such a wide-spread of diseases.
Orcs farm swine. The dietary habits aren't entirely clear, so agriculture appears unlikely, but the orcs do and definitely have farmed swine, there are pig farms all over the place.
Any type of sickness that the orcs might bring over would not effect Humans as much as the Human diseases would effect the orcs, simply based on the fact that Orcs immune systems would not have been as tolerant as the Humans would.
This is a total nonsequitor. The fact that they're from different planets would also mean that diseases would not have grown to attack the non native species. Likely, any diseases that already existed would be incapable of cross contamination. This isn't "War of the Worlds". Cross special contamination is unlikely as is, interstellar cross contamination is a farce.
Humans also had the domination over horses. Horses through out real life experiences have been huge advantage in warfare for real life Humans, and up until World War 1 were heavily used. With Horses Humans would be able to quickly move onto their enemies, and not only that be able to quickly transfer information.
Orcs have domination over massive wolves. Wolves are combat ready even with a dead rider. You do the math.
For the Orcs -
There is also the element of surprise. Humans were not expecting the Orcs, and they quickly invaded the Humans home world. In the start Humans would be scattered, and confused. At the time Azeroth was not united under one kingdom, and instead was divided into several. One kingdom may not give aid to the other simply based on the fact that they believed it was not their problem.
The fractured groups of humans may have been a disadvantage, but don't forget that during the orcish invasion, the orcs were only fully united due to demons binding them together under one army. In truth, the orcs always had separate clans, which may have been more synonymous with kingdoms, as we cannot really tell how large they were.
The Orcs also had an extremely menacing experience to them. Any one on a battle field would be in the right to be extremely scared of them. The Orcs could play on this fear by a great deal.
Though the orcs are a warring race, the history of Azeroth is a particullarly brutal and violent one as well. Any planet with the sheer number of races as azeroth is bound to have conflicts constantly. Before the orcs arrived, humans would have been in combat with trolls, murlocs (most settlements would be near bodies of water) gnolls, and any number of other races, and even other humans.
The last thing Orcs had an advantage over with the humans was the fact that they did not have a direct leader society. There was no one to specifically target in order to do a massive blow to their army. Unlike the humans, where if you were to say kill off their main general or officer, they would possibly be lost in battle and unsure what step to take next.
This isn't true, and it isn't true about humans either. There were always second in command individuals for the humans, and the leaders of the clans would be that warlords for the orcs.
Conclusion -
Both sides have great advantages over one another, but in the end it appears that Humans would have more. Germs/Diseases play a pivotal role in this,because you do not need an enemy always there in order to spread this. If one Orc were to contract it, and than return to where they were stationed, he could spread it to every one there, and than as they meet up with more Orcs the diseases would continue to spread.
Nonsequitor for victory? No.
So in the end, I believe in a real life situation Humans would have a clear advantage of the Orcs, and eventually win/conquer them in the end.
I think we can't estimate the outcome of a battle that involves an arsenal we can't comprehend. The use of magic would swing the war massively in various directions, and you can't disregard magic when we're talking about Warcraft Orcs and Humans.
According to the books (video games, whatever), the humans won the war, but the orcs were not defeated. The fact that the invaders were never wiped out, and actually came to settle on the new planet, in my opinion, is quite an accomplishment.
Post by
Adamsm
Actually for Orc's vs Humans, the first war, it was really a stalemate; The humans lead by Lothar were forced to flee as stormwind came crashing down, but Doomhammer was dealing with the Shadow council at that point, so he was unable to follow and finish them off. The Death's of Meidvh and Wrynn also caused more chaos so that the final battle was never actually finished.
Post by
Lusky
Not to mention the coming of the Burning Legion and the Scourge, don't forget that little... Tidbit there...
Also, I don't get your reasoning behind your diseases concept, I mean, diseases were spread and killed people when just a new group of people came to a new land, coming from a new world would cause us to be just as susceptible to their diseases as they would be to ours.
Plus, if they really did come over, they would have
their
mounts if we had ours, no? I mean they tamed wolves as mount, and we have our horses, I don't see you ruling that in. You're making a lot of wrong assumptions, because the Orcs
do
have a direct leader, called Warchiefs, mate. They
do
have tactics on how they approached battles, but were just more fierce on the battlefield itself.
Post by
283679
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Post by
HoleofArt
The problem with The Orc vs. Humans, is WoW's need for the 2 factions to seem equal.
The first invasion of Orcs against the nation of Azeroth was completely destroyed. You can say, yea but they brought their own mounts and had warchiefs, they still were completely destroyed. It was the continual interfering of Sargeras/Gul'dan/Medvih that there was even a second invasion.
It was Gul'dan that had LLane Wyrnn killed and overthrowing Stormwind Keep. It was also Gul'dan that kept the Horde from overtaking a poorly defended Loraedon. Then the Humans reclaimed a poorly defended Stromwind. It ended with the Orcs being pushed back to the dark portal and or Blackrock Spire. It was the scourge that cost the Human's Loraedon.
For the most part until WoWwith Thrall and Orgrimmar, the Orcs were a barbaric horde. They had no support system. Straight Human versus Orc fights ended with Human victories. Plot devices by Blizzard give Orc victories.
From a 'realistic' look, Orcs are under supported for a war with the Humans. Comparisons in history show this to be true.
Depends on what you refer to as "support", because if you remember, the orcs lost the.. I believe it was the Second War, because Gul'dan decided to betray Grom, and go look for Sargeras's tomb, while taking a huge chunk of forces with him. If that's not a "plot devices by Blizzard" that gave the Alliance the victory of the entire war, I don't know what is. Sargeras made it
worse
for the Horde.
In a straight up fight, with none of the chiefs killing and betraying eachother to take the title of Warchief, I do believe the orcs would have won. They wouldn't have been so tied up politically that they would have been easily able to conquer the humans. I think you're underestimating just how good orcs are at war.
They've had lots of practice. ^.^
Post by
Adamsm
Gul'dan betrayed Doomhammer by taking shadowmoon and twilight hammer clans with him in search of sargeras, then a portion of the dragonmaw and blackrock(?) went after him, splitting the forces.
The 2nd invasion as people call it, was Ner'zhul sending those who fled through the portal at the end of Doomhammer's defeat at Blackrock mountain, back to azeroth to collect items to create the spells.
Let's be honest here, First War, humans got their butts kicked, Garona killing Llane, Lothar off dealing with Medivh instead of leading the army, all that is accepted. But the biggest thing the Human's werent expecting was a massive army of 6 foot tall green skinned, tusked, muscled brutal monster coming out of the swamps to kill them.
So yeah if we had multiple war's like on azeroth, maybe human kind would win, but the first dozen or so battles, eve now in our so called modern age, Humans would be scared to death to be fighting "demons", as the orc's were first called.
I mean you can talk about big guns and the like, but even now a days you see people freezing while their hunting, and they end up getting mauled by bears lions and the like. Imagine it, your an 18 year old on the battlefield, being told your going to be fighting big green skinned creatures? Okay that makes sense, but actually seeing them, watching as these massive monsters are attacking you with axes and swords, watching them cut down your buddies, watching them keep coming no matter how you many shoot down.
Shock and Awe would be in the hands of the Orc's, not the humans.
Post by
HiVolt
Wow, you're away from these forums for half a day and you miss out on some interesting stuff. There are a lot of good points made, but I think I think I'm going to clarify on a few points here.These clarifications will be made disregarding the use of magic and the leadership principle. These are wild-cards in my opinion, and without knowing the proper structure and application these ideas, I won't attempt to explain them. Also, I won't be offering my opinion on who would win because I am unsure of many of the other factors that would play into this struggle, ex. size of force, military tactics, supplies, etc.
On disease. While it is true that the Humans, being a rather civilized farming society, would have all mostly become completely immune to any diseases that their livestock may harbor, it does not put the Orcs at a disadvantage. Regardless of the fact that they had never encountered such diseases before, we need to remember two very important things: One, the Orcs are not from Azeroth, so there is no evidence that any disease therein would affect them; and Two, the Orcs are a completely separate species from Humans. This means that any disease that could affect humans may be of little consequence to Orcs. Many disease that effect multiple species have extremely varied results in those species. One may die of it, while it may give another the sniffles.
On horses. I agree with the idea that the Humans would have been at an advantage over the Orcs due to their dominion over horses, but not in a cavalry situation. You may forget that, while the Humans had horses, the Orcs had worgs. In battle, it is much more likely for a worg to continue fighting if his rider is killed or thrown off, than it is for a horse. In this case, the Orcs may have even been at an advantage. However, what the Humans had with their horses, are numbers and workability. The greater ability for a horse to work gives it many more applications than just as a mount, and the sheer numbers of the horses would have made the Human cavalry outnumber the Orcish cavalry significantly.
On the soldiery. The Humans, it is noted did have a higher number of fieldable soldiers, but the Orcs had a higher number of skilled warriors. It should be noted that on a battlefield akin to that of our wars in the past, higher troop numbers have often won over the better trained smaller force. But this is in the battlefield sense, and fails to take in one key principle of warfare: Location is everything in determining the outcome of a battle. Given the proper location a hundred highly skilled warriors can fend off tens of thousands of soldiers. Just look to
this
and
this
for confirmation of this idea. The terrain of Azeroth, espescially that of the southern Eastern Kingdoms has few places that allow for massive movements of troops in a battlefield style. It is heavily mountainous and densely forested, as such, many of the battles would likely remain small.
@krystalmeth: This is a wonderful idea, please keep them coming.
Post by
Adamsm
Actually this is something you saw in both Last Guardian and Tides of Darkness: Horses are scared to death of Orc's, if they smell them, their first instinct is to run. It happened a few times with the calvary attacking the orc's only to have the horses shy and throw the riders once they got close.
Post by
HiVolt
Actually this is something you saw in both Last Guardian and Tides of Darkness: Horses are scared to death of Orc's, if they smell them, their first instinct is to run. It happened a few times with the calvary attacking the orc's only to have the horses shy and throw the riders once they got close.
Very true, and the fact that the smell frightens them makes blinders useless, but I maintain that for a working situation, the Humans were at an advantage. They would have been able to move large ammounts of supplies and troops relatively easily if no Orcs were encountered during the transit.
Post by
Adamsm
Oh yeah, no doubt, but for the first war, the calvary were useless against the orcs, thought, in the second war, the horses were better, they were used to orc smell. Course, during all the wars, the horses were still afraid of ogres.
Post by
HiVolt
You know, despite the fact that horses were easily frightened by the Orcs, I can't help but think that with training a horse could be a marvelous mount in cavalry. I mean, you can train a horse to run straight at a tree without stopping, and the only way it will veer to a side is if the rider makes it do so. I know fear would play a large part in the battle, but in a real life situation, if the rider didn't make the horse turn and run, I can't help but think that it would go into battle, hesitantly, but it may still go in. This is of course speculation, as I have no idea how a horse would react to a real Orc.
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