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Help with handling multiple mobs!?!?!!
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Post by
122344
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Arideni
Calm down, never panic. You see the mobs already in front of you, so don't act surprised & freak out.
Using Thunderclap once isn't going to do anything for very long. I have already touched on this in the following post:
http://www.wowhead.com/?forums&topic=10188&p=88779#p88779
Here's an excerpt:
So, from the tank's perspective we're going to be pulling out Thunderclap on every cooldown. I'm going to expect you to hold off on the Whirlwinds until I get at least one Thunderclap down. It's imperative that I have all 4 mobs (for our example) pounding on me at the same time — if this doesn't happen, then I'm not going to have the rage necessary to continuously spam Thunderclap in my rotations.
To elaborate on the process a little...
As I said, the most important thing to do is establish initial aggro. You can do this by pulling, pumping Bloodrage & asking your group to give you 1 or 2 Sunders (really Devastates, but they're going to only see the debuff from Sunder Armor) before they attack. Make sure you're using proper threat building techniques with Devastate. You can find more information on that here:
http://www.wowhead.com/?forums&topic=9412&p=86291#p82604
Now, you're going to have several creatures on you at once. Take the time & toss around a few Sunder Armors or Devastates, whatever on other creatures. This is known as "Tab targeting." Basically, you cycle through all targets & spam an ability such as Devastate.
Instead of using Heroic Strike, go ahead & use Cleaves. You can force a Cleave on a specific secondary targets by moving your character slightly. Experience doing this will give you better judgement & even allow you to Cleave right next to a Sheep (or other type of CC). It's not recommended for anyone to try this unless you're very confident with your judgement (it can take a lot of man-hours to do this). I don't recommend this in a raid environment
ever
. Be careful not to rage starve yourself with constant Cleaving, only use it during your "free" spots in your rotation & that should throttle it enough to prevent starvation. If the latter statement didn't make sense, go back & read the post about attack rotations.
How do you keep the aggro on you once you have them? Keep spamming Thunderclap during free spots in your rotation. This should be somewhat close to it's inherent cooldown, but keep using it. Players usually recommend Demoralizing Shout, but this ability does
not
produce enough threat against 4 or more targets to justify its rage & precious time spent. I do recommend putting this up for survival purposes, but just know it is not the high threat ability it's usually made out to be.
Above & beyond all, tab-targeting provides the most threat per creature of any method. No amount of Imp. Thunderclap can override a single Sunder or Devastate on another creature. No Cleave can be as accurate & as potent against a single target. You have to establish immediate threat on the main target — AOE & multiple hit moves like Cleave are simply to buy time until you can focus directly on the next target.
-----
Shattered Halls isn't the easiest 5-man dungeon ever, though it's fairly simple. The first thing to do is make sure you know which mobs do what. For example, Legionnaires should
always
be taken down first. Keep the Sharpshooter-type mobs CC'd as they can (and they will, by Murphy's Law) Scatter Shot you, causing immediate loss of aggro on every creature. There's nothing worse than disabling effects on your character, especially at the start of a fight.
Reavers are heavy hitters if I recall & having them CC'd behind Sharpshooters is a good idea. Killing other mobs such as Acolytes (healers, duh) & clothie mobs first means you don't even need to CC them. Get your group to silence or interrupt them & pull them back. That's something that should be done the entire dungeon: always pull your groups backward so you can a) Fear, b) Thunderclap, & c) do anything else you can think of. That also helps with warlocks, they can blow their fears easier if you pull far back. Again, Murphy's Law dictates that the feared creatures can & will run down the hall, into the next room. It ain't pretty.
I'm sure I have neglected some thing, but hopefully this is some general information that will help many others as well.
Post by
blademeld
Shattered Halls isn't the easiest 5-man dungeon ever, though it's fairly simple.
I had a group with 3 warlocks.... they cleared 1-2 packs of trash while i lay dead on the floor :'(
Post by
axhed
for 3+ mobs, spam imp tclap every cooldown along with cleaves instead of heroics; spread the cleaves among the targets.
get to know tclap's range. when a pug sees you successfully tclapping repeatedly in between cc's without breaking them you'll be sought after.
inevitably, something will go wrong and mobs and players will be running everywhere, usually with the tank standing alone in the middle of it all. take two seconds to make a plan, then go around and pick up the loose mobs one by one, marking a new kill order as you go along.
keybind everything! click nothing!
i had all the raid targets assigned to a row of buttons so it was easy as pie to mark up a new kill order in the middle of battle.
Post by
Arideni
i had all the raid targets assigned to a row of buttons so it was easy as pie to mark up a new kill order in the middle of battle.
This is key, especially without using Voice chat, to provide valuable information to players. Just make sure they're paying attention to what the order of targets really is. Some players will be in Voice chat with their guild or using the phone, etc. even clipping their toenails or something stupid like that & just randomly follow whatever target appears after skull.
-----
Blademeldz, we all know warlocks don't really need us =(
& hi
Post by
Aris
Heroic Shattered Halls is THE test of a good tank. If you can do it with no wipes, and finish in around an hour, you pass.
Things to make sure of:
Make sure everyone knows the kill order and their all single target dps'ing them down in order. Dont let dps aoe or use abilities like whirlwind or bladefury.
Pop thunderclap every times its up, and make sure you have 3/3 imp TC. Also refresh demo shout as needed. Thunderclap on every cooldown will hold healing aggro. Long as you only have 4 mobs on you.
Maintain most of your attention on the current dps target, but keep your eyes in the back of your head at all times. If something pulls off you, go after it immediately, intervene is your friend. Taunt, put a devistate on it, and then go back to your current main dps target and pop shield slam on it so it doesnt start looking shifty at your DPS.
If you have the rage, spam cleave instead of heroic strike.
CC is your friend, dont break CC's. Make sure your DPS knows to CC things away from you, either by comming up with you when you pull, to CC it in place, or having them pull aggro on their CC target and CC'ing it when it gets to them.
Be mindful of CC that cant be re-cc'd, like saps. When you see that sap running at the rogue or healer, get on it right away, put a devistate on it, and a demo shout, and hopefully a thunderclap will hit it also, then go back to your current dps target.
========================
You CAN tank more than 4 at a time, you just always have to be shifting off the current dps target to grab runners.
If your having a hard time, holding aggro, ask your dps to give you a bit of time to build aggro before they start. Perhaps waiting till you get a second TC down.
Its difficult, no doubts about it, but it is do-able.
Post by
93026
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Arideni
Careful judgement on how much threat is built on a single mob is probably the trickiest thing to learn when tanking. You'll learn to judge spacing around CC, etc. for Tclaps & Cleaves long before you've got the knack of knowing how much of a buffer you have built up on a mob. Even then, you can only be so accurate because you're not just judging your own threat, but how much threat has been dealt by other players & how much threat they can deal in relation to what is necessary to eliminate the mob before pulling aggro.
If that sounded confusing, just know this: you can let a mob run around 3% in a normal dungeon & it won't matter. He'll die from the next Scorch, Arcane Shot, or even a rogue's auto-attacks, but if he breaks aggro away on Heroic, it's very realistic he's going to get off a punishing hit if they're in range.
I'm talking sometimes a thrash or Uppercut-esque move combined with auto-attack for 14000 damage (or higher, but that was pre-Heroic nerfs, lol). Needless to say, this can (hilariously) effectively 1-shot other players. Lmao, the memories of things like this are a riot, imo.
Anyways, my point is to always make sure you *know* the creature isn't going to break away from you or get adds, then you can forget all about him & be building against your next target while the DPS finishes off the gimp.
Post by
Aris
oh one other thing, if you do lose aggro on the current kill target, but its slowed by either poison, or frost spells, etc etc, and you know it'll die before it gets to the ranged dps that pulled aggro, let it go and start building up TPS on the next kill target.
you dont always have to hold the aggro, you just have to make sure it doesnt hit anyone else.
Post by
64664
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Aris
In response to Moenbase:
1. Thunderclap the second they all get into melee range. This will hold the healing aggro. just keep spamming it every time its up, and if something out of the pack goes after a healer, turn, taunt, devistate and go back to the current dps target.
ideally you should bring enough CC in your group that you never have more than 4 mobs to tank at the same time.
2. tell them up front not to aoe, to only single target dps in order. if they dont listen to you, let em die. the only things that you should ever lose aggro to are the current dps target, or something to healing aggro.
dont let bad dps make you look like a bad tank.
3. if any class does that, i let them die, i dont even try to pick it up. soon as it kills them, pick it up and tank like normal. nothing should touch the current kill target before you, ever. again, dont let bad dps make you look like a bad tank. Ive seen dots go up early, melee dps attack something before it gets to me, etc etc. i dont put up with that crap.
4. having enough CC is definately something you need to think about while the group is forming. If you know your going into a CC heavy instance, like SL or SH, and you only see 1 CC class in the group, you should definately say something if your not the group leader. dont set yourself up for failure before you even begin. you dont necissarily need the perfect team build, but some instances require certain things.
Post by
111695
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Arideni
Almost everything moenbase pointed out was not his fault. I'm not saying he couldn't improvise or use techniques such as AE threat, but pretty much each scenario was initially caused or contributed by another party member.
You won't likely have 4+ mobs coming at you, hitting so hard that your healer pulls off with a very first heal, before you even touch them. This just reminds me of bad priests who throw up Power Word: Shield every single cooldown chance they get. Also, if you didn't hit them at least once before you got healed, then that's your own fault.
Mages throwing around Pyroblasts early? Let them die.
Members throwing AOE on elites? Send them back to Scarlet Monastery.
I really just wanted to stress that new tanks often can't tell when it's the other player or their own inability to hold aggro because they're still learning & focused on what they're doing, not really paying attention (or ignorant of) other players.
So, don't be so hard on yourself: if you think you have a serious problem, research it. Research the encounter or creatures you find that problem with & finally, if you can't find a solution, post a thread for us. =)
Post by
93026
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
123828
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Arideni
TC has been changed for quite a while, even pre-TBC I believe it was changed to work in Defensive stance, but garnered little attention until it was re-worked. It's not the same old version, it was changed & innate threat included (as far as I can recall). You should check it out, Belan!
...it helps if you can practice with people you know as opposed to PUGs.
In my opinion, PUGs are the most preferred option for practice. You can make new friends, test out new things & unless you make a serious impression, never have to see their faces again. I'm sure we all have experienced that when leveling you meet new people, then at max level you never see them again. This is a perfect opportunity to get started with virtually no reputation & then at max level you'll become well-known through your friends' own network of contacts & associations. The kicker is that you can screw up all you want & bar some exceptions, you'll have a clean slate every single run. That's important early on, when you're more likely to make errors. Asking friends to be your guinea pig can be very detrimental for the future, if they get a bad impression of your capabilities. Granted, it does depend on how much of a real friend they are to you.
It is definitely easier & more enjoyable with friends, especially when learning. As a tank at heart, I often pick & choose carefully when to ask for help from friends -- I often hate relying on others & prefer to be self-sufficient because at the end of the day, all you really have is yourself.
Be the rock others depend on, don't depend on others to compenstate for you. This is my philosophy.
Feel free to go bananas on me now,=P
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